http://dbd.game/killswitch
Revert/Readjust Flashbang Angle #SaveBangs
Hello, my name is Blake. I've previously gone by Renfurr and been playing this game since 2016. I'm a survivor and Hillbilly/M1 Variety Main. I'm kind of known as being the flashlight/flashbang locker dude, generic "toxic" survivor main as I've been doing locker saves since as early as 2017. Just a quick headsup that it is currently like 4am for me and I am sick with the flu so please bare with me if I forget to cover some things in this post.
This is going to be a pretty in-depth post regarding flashbangs and the recent change that was made in the latest update.
As of the recent update with the release of Tokyo Ghoul, the developers decided to make a change to Flashbangs. This change was written in a way to make it seem like this was a bug rather than a straight up nerf to Firecrackers, Party Starts, and Flashbangs.
Perks
- Fixed an issue that caused a Killer to be blinded while looking away from a Flashbang.
In reality, this change was a direct nerf to the Flashbang perk and Firecracker/Party Starter items. What this change does is that it decreases the blind angle/radius of these items.
Here is the exact line of code from the tunable values file pulled straight from FModel.
After 8.6.0
"Firecracker_BlindEffectLineOfSightThreshold": {
"Value": 0.422618,
"Description": "Angle threshold above which players will be blinded. Value of 1.0 means staring directly at the Firecracker, 0.0 at 90 degrees, and -1.0 at 180 degrees"
},
Before 8.6.0
"Firecracker_BlindEffectLineOfSightThreshold": {
"Value": 0.0,
"Description": "Angle threshold above which players will be blinded. Value of 1.0 means staring directly at the Firecracker, 0.0 at 90 degrees, and -1.0 at 180 degrees"
},
Why Does This Matter?
Well, this matters for a multitude of reasons. To make it short, here's a small list if you don't want to read the entire post.
- Makes it near impossible to hit Flashbang Locker Saves on killers with KBM inputs/on PC.
- There is no sensitivity limit to KBM/PC Players, it takes only 2 frames to turn away
- There is no buffer to locker saves (KEEP IT THAT WAY)
- The reduced cone/angle decreases the amount of frames that a Flashbang will potentially result in a grasp rescue
- It is pure luck to actually hit a locker save (explained later on)
- Directly provides a disadvantage to killer players on Console
- Because there is a sensitivity cap for killers on controller inputs or on console, they cannot possibly turn their camera like a PC player, making it still pretty easy to hit locker bangs on them.
- You can no longer hit saves at a 90 degree angle, or "Wall" saves, where the killer is facing a wall.
- Creates really weird scenarios where the Flashbang or Firecracker looks like it should blind, but doesn't.
- Flashbang popping in the killers POV but still not blinding or being right at their feet and still not blinding.
- Removes a skill ceiling from the game, removes re-playability, and takes away a lot of fun interactions between survivors and killers
And before I continue with this post, it should already be obvious but I do not have a bias to either side. Yes, I main survivor and have been playing since 2016. But I want healthy gameplay for both sides, to promote any form of skillful gameplay on both sides, and to promote fun/different playstyles outside of running your generic anti-tunnel or chase builds, rushing gens as fast as possible and just outing the killer.
Proposed Changes (TL:DR)
From here on out, I will be going more in-depth. If you can't be bothered to read everything, here are the proposed suggestions.
- Revert the blind angle back to 0.0, or 90 degrees - killers being blinded while turning away is an issue with the network/latency from either the game server or the client, the blind angle is NOT the issue.
- Readjust the new blind angle to be somewhere between 65 and 75 degrees.
Cont. Information
From here on out, we will get more in-depth with the actual mechanics behind firecrackers and flashbangs.
Here are some basic numbers pulled from the game files.
Disturbance Distance Min. (Loud Noise): 2m
Disturbance Distance Max (Loud Noise): 100m
Blind Duration: 3s
Firecracker Explosion Radius: 7.5m (3/4 of One Wall on Shack or 3/4 of Max Flashlight Distance w/ no addons)
Flashbang Explosion Radius: 5m (Tip of Red Stain where it fades out)
Default Explosion Delay: 1s
Time to Throw: 0.5s (How long after pressing the throw input before triggering the default explosion delay)
Server Tickrate: 60Hz, or 60FPS.
Bang Blind Angle after 8.6.0: Unknown exact value, but roughly the size of the red stain.
Normal Pickups, Grab Saves, and Dredge Power (Locker) Saves all have a 0.4s Buffer, similar to flashlights
Locker Flashbang Saves do NOT have the buffer applied to them. (And we DON'T want it)
Locker Pull Animation Duration(No Perks): 5s or 600 Frames (120fps) 300 Frames (60FPS)
Normal Animation/Grabs Duration(No Perks): 3s, 360 Frames (120fps) 180 Frames (60FPS)
General Rules for Flashbangs
- If the killer has Higher FPS/Lower Ping = The more perfect your timing needs to be because the killer's client/network is sending and receiving data at faster intervals.
- If the killer has Lower FPS/Higher Ping = Survivors must adjust timing to throw LATER than normal timing because the killer's client/network is sending and receiving data at slower intervals
- Killers on console or controller inputs are easier to hit locker flashbangs on because their maximum sensitivity is limited, resulting in slower turns and more frames where a flashbang has a chance of blinding. (About 8-12 Frames after the animation depending on their hardware and sensitivity)
- Before the 8.6.0 update, you had about 4-6 Frames after the animation to hit a flashbang locker save on a PC killer who was trying to flick or turn away from the blind quickly. This solely depended on their ping as PC killers with less than 60fps is NOT common.
- After the 8.6.0 update, PC killers now flick away in 1-2 Frames after the animation because the blind angle is severely reduced as opposed to the original 90 degree blind. There is less area that the killer needs to cover when turning in order to avoid the blind.
- Looking straight up while flicking/moving your mouse and using the up arrow/camera up keybind as Killer makes your character look all the way up in 1-2 Frames always, so killers who knew about this were impossible to save against, even when the blind angle was wider.
Because the server is running at 60Hz, for every 16.67ms, is equal to 1 Frame (60FPS) or 2 Frames (120FPS).
An example of this would be the survivor having 40ms and the killer having 80ms.
The survivor now needs to factor in their input delay (2 Frames, 40/16.67) and the killers ping (4 Frames, 80/16.67). Assuming we are playing at 120FPS, that means the flashbang needs to explode on Frame 604 to be considered a perfect or "God" frame.
Note: Can yall make the blind radius/range of Bangs and Firecrackers the same btw? :3 <3
Inconsistencies/Bugs
The actual time before a flashbang/firecracker explodes is roughly 2 seconds, which is kind of odd as it should be 1.5s according to the code. I assume the time to throw time is applied twice, once when you press the input, and once again after the item icon actually disappears from your hand. I'm not 100% sure on that, but the timing is roughly 2 seconds.
Certain killers (Hunchback Killers) have bugged animations that make them sink inside of the locker making it extremely hard to flashbang locker save against as the bangs need a precise spot to land or an extra world object to line it up perfectly (for example, spots where two lockers spawn next to each other: Water Tower Locker on Macmillan Maps, Double locker spawns on generic Autohaven Tiles)
These killers include;
- Blight
- Demogorgon
- Singularity
The time between pressing the input to throw the flashbang/firecracker is inconsistent. On the release day of Tokyo Ghoul, we sat in customs for over 5 hours just throwing bangs and trying to hit on a killer on PC that is trying to flick or turn away. I recorded about 15 of these saves that I went for and marked down the timings of the frames when I pressed the input and when the flashbang exploded. The gameplay was recorded at 120fps, therefore, the time should be consistent, the bang should explode after 240 frames if we go by our 2 second rule. Well, it is inconsistent. I've attached a spreadsheet with my data from those 15 saves.
The TL;DR is that the lowest amount of frames before the flashbang exploded was 227 Frames. The highest amount was 237 Frames.
I will provide a spreadsheet to view my data from these 15 saves in this post as well as a link to view on Google Docs towards the bottom of the post.
ErrorPermission ProblemBang Testing.xlsxClose
General Conclusion and Counter Arguments
This change was extremely harsh, for zero reason. It completely removes a skill from the Survivors which is already extremely rare. You don't see flashbang squads every day who are really good at what they do. Most people don't even understand the mechanics behind them fully.
This angle change completely ruins a playstyle for many people and communities out in the fog, and it only affects players who have been practicing or playing for a long time/put in countless hours of trying to practice in public or custom games just to get a grasp of the timing.
By keeping this change in the game, you are killing the item/perk, removing killer/survivor interaction, reducing teamplay mechanics of an unconventional playstyle in a team-based 4v1, which by the way, has a perk that completely negates anything this item can do (Lightborn) as well as the new perk that came out which throws off timing completely and makes it a guessing game (Forever Entwined).
Not to mention, this forces the game into a more competitive direction. Players who run these perks/items, guess what they want? To have fun. To have equal and shared killer-survivor interaction. Typically, they don't want to escape and will be slammed by someone who is actually good at killer while also allowing for less experienced killer players to gain chase experience or try out their power in different ways, albeit it may be frustrating, the game is still being progressed and if progression does stop, the abandon feature now kills the survivors essentially.
We don't want to be forced to run the meta anti-tunnel or full chase builds every single game, rush through the objective, and be out of the trial within 8 to 10 minutes. The fun of this game comes from interaction between both sides. This playstyle allows for players to have something to do outside of the objective, allowing for teamplay in high risk, high reward and exciting situations. Sharing chases and trying to go for nasty plays is far more interactive and fun for both sides than having one person being tunneled out all game or being chased the entire game because they're running a syringe with Finesse, Vigil, Lithe/SB/Dramaturgy, and Resilience while the rest of the survivors sit on generators and escape.
Anyways, thanks for listening to my TED Talk.
Onto the Counter Arguments!
Locker Flashbangs aren't fair, I'm locked into animation for 5 seconds!
Survivors must be attentive to the ping and platform of players in the match and learn a very specific timing for varying pings, input delays, frame rates, while also not getting downed outside of a locker. Many killer players have told me how skill-less it is to do these over the years, but I have yet to see a killer player try to hit a locker save. It may seem easy, but I promise you, it is very impressive to consistently hit these types of saves when you consider all the nuances of the mechanics, chase powers, teamplay/coordination, and other nuances in the game.
Double Locker Setups are extremely broken, if they have Head On, I have no choice but to pull them and eat the stun/save or wait out crows just to get ONE!
I completely agree, lockers should not spawn right next to each other within Head On range. These were spawning in abundance after the Dredge update as a way to incorporate him into map design. Double lockers are indeed broken and lead to very unfun and frustrating experiences for the killer. In fact, that is why flashlight locker saves were removed. I used to do flashlight lockers before it became popular on twitch and in content creation. Once it gained popularity, people started bringing flashlights with built to last and double charge addons and would just sit in lockers until their beams ran out or until the server closed. The issue was never flashlight locker saves, the issue has always been double locker setups. These absolutely should be removed from the game and I apologize if you've ever had to deal with survivors like this. It is fun for one side and not the other, and we don't want that. We want fun interaction for both sides that rewards better plays. As a survivor main, I promise, we aren't all evil and out to hurt the other side <3
Well, it's also not fair that I can kiss a wall and still get blinded!
Again, I absolutely agree that it can be frustrating. But this can be countered by simply doing a quick glance around the area for other survivors and pushing them away far enough to where they cannot get the save in time. Remember, they have to throw that bang in front of your feet between 0.6 and 1 second after starting the animation. Unless there are multiple survivors covering all angles, forcing them away a certain distance and doing a unique turn will often give you a free hook. Hitting a wall save is simply a misplay on the killer players' behalf and a reward for positioning on the survivors behalf!
I can't counter grab saves because they just abuse the buffer and spam vault pallets/lockers.
If you lunge instead of short swinging, it will always result in a slug rather than a down. As for the buffer, as an old head DBD player, I think buffer should be removed completely to add skill back into the game. But from the developers' perspective, buffer exists to make these items and shenanigans more accessible to newer players or people who do not play as much. As much as I would love to have no buffer, it's unfair to newer players. Though, that doesn't mean it can't be revisited later by the developers to reduce the duration of buffer to make it require a bit more skill.
Survivors refuse to leave the Killer Shack or other tiles and don't progress the game!
There is now an abandon feature for situations like this where if you're just fed up, you can abandon the match after 10 minutes of no objective progress. But to not sound like an ######### and just say GO NEXT, you have to remember, flashbangs are a finite resource. For every 40% of a generator completed, that is one flashbang. Meaning survivors have to progress the game in order to craft more or your perks regress generators so that survivors can craft more flashbangs. Survivors can also bring in a firecracker to carry multiple flashbangs in their inventory. But as I mentioned, their resources are limited, if you genuinely don't know what to do, take that risk and JUST PULL the locker. It's a gamble whether the survivors hit the save or not. If they hit the save, remember, it's high risk and high reward. If they miss the save, that is a hook stage on your behalf!
Survivors who do this type of stuff are always BMing me and being toxic though?!
Try not to take it personally, bad days happen and we get that. At the end of the day, it's a game and we just want to have fun. Anything that happens in the game stems from a grain of salt or to spice up the game by getting in your head. At the end of the match, nobody is there to genuinely make you feel miserable outside of a few bad apples. <3
As an M1 killer with no perks or useful chase power, I can't do anything against survivors who are really good at abusing single locker rotations, what can I do?
Sadly, this has always been an issue for killers like wraith, plague, pig, bubba, etc. Luckily, not many players out there actually know how to use the locker rotation strategy properly against Tier 3 Bloodlust. I understand this is a frustrating thing to experience when you eventually do run into a coordinated squad like this, but believe me, it is rare. For now, the only option is to just pull and waste their bang resources. This is another one of those things that comes down to the developers and how they would want to go about nerfing this strategy, whether it be a locker pull change (like changing the animation from 5 seconds to 4 seconds) or increasing the length of certain tiles to prevent this strategy. However, like I said, this is kind of a non-issue because it is so rare and probably hasn't been on their radar nor is it an easy issue to address in other ways without affecting other aspects of the game.
If I missed any arguments you may have, feel free to ask below and I can provide a response, though, I'm pretty sure this covers most of the main complaints I've gotten from players and content creators over the years.
Extra Media
Example of a Flashbang Save that should've hit, but didn't hit. Looks really odd seeing a grenade blow up in front of a killer and not being phased by it at all? No lightborn, they had Deadlock, Lethal Pursuer, BBQ, Pain Resonance.
40ms Survivor, 80ms Killer. Both 120fps. Bang explodes frame 604, same frame that killer slightly turns to the left. Should be "god" frame but does nothing because of the angle change update.
Wall bangs no longer work because of the angle change, also some footage of other wacky angles that SHOULD blind.
I would post some screenshots of the bang being like a pixel outside of the red stain right in front of the killers' feet and not blinding them but it is giving me permission errors on here, but you can always go test it out in a custom if you want to see it yourself in game, sorry <3
If you have any other footage or clips of your bangs being whack and not blinding killers during this update, please reply to this post with it or say something. The only way we'll get this reverted or adjusted is by being very vocal about it towards the developers <3
#SaveBangs
P.S. Make lockers glow with a bright yellow or white aura that intensifies when a survivor is in it with Head On ;) Had to slide that in there for the SoloQ gamers
Comments
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SORRY I FORGOT TO POST THE LINK TO THE GOOGLE SPREADSHEET WITH THE DATA. PLEASE FIX THE INCONSISTENT EXPLOSIONS SO SAVES/TIMING ISNT PURE LUCK
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fzqym0nf8wCIhEUSM4hvfyAXaxkeTOuiRyFppN0IxD8/edit?usp=sharing2 -
Yeah this recent update I realize how garbage flashlights and flashbang became even more. I got 0 blinds with either in 10 matches yesterday and gave up{,killer did not have lightborn). At this point am telling you they may remove the survivors out the game its just pathetic.
I also like to add at this point I want capcom to take away the re License because bvhr apparently never played a RE game before. First they gutted RPD and now they ruin flashbang because you know something flash bang also STUNS in the actual re game so it does both like blast mine does. If they wanna ruin the blind then put stun on it.
Post edited by buggybug on-6 -
30ms killer, 30ms survivor. 60fps footage, 120fps gameplay. Killer has control at frame 302. Killer barely moves their camera and the bang explodes at frame 307, with kaneki only turned away a tiny bit. Would've been perfect timing pre 8.6.0 before you only had 1-2 frames to hit perfect frame.
Locker CJ doesn't hit because the bang cone is too small even though its right in front of her. The cone doesnt expand far enough to register a save because the bang is essentially at their feet and slightly off to the left.
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These changes are a vast overcorrection and severely limit an already limited angle for survivors to interact with the killer, the tactics used with the locker are used by extremely dedicated players, and it is fun and high risk and is the only reason many of them still play the game. Taking this and locker flashlights away as a whole instead of trying to balance it or change it is a tragedy and unfair to players probably more dedicated than most of the player base.
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Unfortunate that they finally got around to ruining anything blinding related in this game. Can't say I'm surprised sadly, but it definitely is disappointing. Really hoping this gets reverted but honestly I doubt it will. Anyone who wants to complain about medkit syringes and anti tunnel perks can thank these changes for removing one of the last fun perks / items in the game.
-1 -
I'm a big fan of the changes they made and don't think there needs to be a revision.
Survivor teams would use these flashbang setups and place them inside killer models or create lose-lose scenarios with lockers. Many survivor teams used these to specifically bully killers and not even play the game effectively stalling it for their own enjoyment at the cost of killer's not being able to do much about it.
Old flashbangs disrupted the game and now lean into healthier play by far. They actually require skill and are satisyign to hit and engaging to play against again.
HUGE win this update!!!!1 -
-3
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Devs pls ignore this post. The changes are good for the health of the game, we were given flashlight locker immunity because of people abusing it to stall out games and this person is arguing that because there's a feature to end the game after wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time sitting in 2 lockers that it's fine. It's not fine, neither was being flashbang saved while physically counting the pixels on the wall you've shoved your face into.
The changes the devs have made are good ones.
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again, if you read the post. Thats a balance issue with locker spawns. Not the item itself. Flashlight immunity was valid even though they couldve nerfed the saves in other ways because like I said, the average mid survivor player would sit double lockers with double charge addons and built to last which led to unfun and uninteractive gameplay.
We advocate for these locker spawns to be removed to avoid this situation.
As for the walls thing, the animation to pick takes 3 seconds. You essentially have a .4 second window to drop the bang for it to hit. That means a survivor must be within 2 and a half meters of the killer picking a survivor against the wall. This means the killer misplayed and did not force the survivors far enough away before picking the survivor. The item is a literal grenade, not a flashlight that needs to be pointed at your face, it makes sense for it to blind if thrown at your feet even if you face a wall.
-7 -
same thing i mentioned to gothic above.
Double lockers is the issue. Not the flashbang. Those 100% need to be nerfed to prevent this scenario as its unfair and promotes uninteractive and uncounterable gameplay.
Why should an item be gutted because of poor map design? What if a killer received a massive nerf just because it was extremely strong on a couple different maps? Think logically and for both sides rather than just what affects you as killer.
The wall saves is genuinely just killer player cope as its literally a misplay on your behalf by not forcing survivors far enough away before picking the survivor since its a 0.4s timing that requires you to be within 2 meters of the killer barring perks that grant haste. And even then, the timing is still rough. It rewards a survivor for taking risky positioning.
-5 -
I'm gonna be honest.
Before Flash Bang (all blinds) had the buffer, I used to love getting Flash Bang saves. I felt like I was actually skilled, because there was tight timing to make it possible. Yes, it was annoying when Desync made a save not count, but I'd take that over how easy they made FB/Beamers. That change single-handedly nerfed grasp saves more than anything else due to them requiring zero skill, so killers are more terrified to pick up now.
HOWEVER, I had gotten over this. I no longer really went for bang saves, because they just weren't satisfying since anyone tossing on BGP could get them. Regardless, I enjoyed using them in chase a lot, so I could knock killers like Legion/Wesker out of power, or just in general use with sound muffle around corners in chase, so I could make distance.
Then Crackers/Bangs got bugged around Christmas and instead of reverting Flash Bang audio to pre-Christmas, they gutted it. You can no longer skillfully muffle sound from a flash bang, because they are heard no matter what. This annoyed me, because they're now pretty much useless in chase unless the killer is animation locked.
Then they have now went BEYOND just avoiding wall facing blinds, but have made it almost impossible to consistently use them for a save. It's not a matter of skill in this situation. The angle is so small that if I do go with a loaded Sprint Burst, I'd have to almost be right behind them to get in the area that I could actually get a save with it, which is obviously not going to happen, because unless they're very inexperienced, they won't pick up when they hear you that close.
I agree you should not be able to get saves when facing a wall, but you over nerfed the angles you CAN get saves from. I can only assume with how hard it was for you to fix the FB audio bug there is no chance of you continuing to get audio from FB back to it's pre-Christmas value, but I really wish you'd try.
You've managed to destroy my favorite perk/item in the game. I can deal without locker saves. I can deal without wall facing saves. I get it. I can't deal with them being absolutely useless in chase + having save angles that will literally require you die for an attempt most of the time. The only way this angle works is if you reduce the amount of time it takes for Flash Bang to detonate 3s → 2s. It would still suck, but I'd take that over the absolute gutting that was done to them.
Genuinely, removing the blind buffer single-handedly created so many of the issues people have with flash bang/beamers and like I said nerfed them more than any other change due to how free they are.
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I agree with the original post. A significant portion of the issues surrounding flashbangs and locker saves stems from the buffer mechanic. However, as previously mentioned, the developers aim to make timing mechanics more accessible to newer players. New players are generally less inclined to attempt locker saves, and if recent changes, particularly the removal of the buffer, were adjusted, locker saves would likely become less problematic. This would reintroduce a higher skill ceiling, requiring near-perfect timing—something that even veteran players struggle with. The outcome is largely dependent on factors such as killer ping, survivor ping, killer FPS, platform, and potentially other variables.
Maintaining the ability to perform locker saves with flashbangs without a buffer would allow survivors some form of skill expression. It's always an us vs. them mentality. I play both sides, and appreciate skill expression on killer. Another form of skill expression that was nerfed in this update was Oni, which I feel was unnecessary. What's next, Wesker, Billy, Huntress? I fear for the sustainability of this game if mechanics continue to be removed.
Personally, I've taken a break from attempting locker saves with flashbangs, focusing instead on escapes. However, the game feels much more repetitive and lackluster when playing solely for escapes. I enjoy switching between different strategies, and I believe these changes may lead to a decline in engagement among long-term players who are still seeking variety and enjoyment in the game.
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exactly, this. Buff the ######### out of oni for all i care so that console and controller players can have those insane flicks. It makes the killer that more interesting and expressive with skill.
Completely agree that this game becomes repetitive and boring if all you do is play for objective and escapes. When you take away these niche mechanics, you’re only exacerbating other issues like syringes, bnps, god toolboxes that just make the other side have zero fun whatsoever because your only goal is to escape really rather than play for fun interactions. And trust me when I say the killers will be way more frustrated playing vs 4 god boxes every single game and getting at least 3 outed - at least by players who have a grasp of what theyre doing. It wont be fun and just promotes sleeper gameplay.
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Very insightful post, just shows how vague and unclear BHVR is when it comes to their changes. They need to state exactly what they did and be more transparent. It's the source of the catch up they are having to do with how buggy and ######### the game is rn, if they had proper documentation that THEY and the COMMUNITY could keep track of, it'd be easier to communicate when there are issues.
So Behavior start being more clear, honestly. It's not a huge ask, you'll kill your game slowly otherwise.-3 -
There used to be a github repo that would document all changes in the pak files from patch to patch so you could easily see the exact values that were modified, added, removed, etc. but it has been discontinued by the account owner. Now you have to manually check with FModel
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While it is possible that flashbangs have been adjusted too far when it comes to the blind radius - I haven't really played around with them much to check post-update - I find these stated reasons for why to be deeply unconvincing.
Of the three main points listed here, two of them are just talking about an unfair scenario being patched out, those being locker saves and "wall bang" saves.
I'm genuinely surprised to learn there isn't immunity for flashbang saves when grabbing someone out of a locker when there is for flashlight saves. I can't imagine why one would be okay and not the other, considering both require timing and positioning. If one's unfair, both are, and one most certainly is unfair.
When it comes to "wall bang" saves, there's really no justifying this. Staring at a wall is supposed to be the counterplay to blinding saves, and there's no excuse for flashbangs removing that. As you state here, if looking at a wall isn't counterplay, the killer would be forced to chase survivors lingering around for the save away, which is playing into their hands; many, many tools exist to make that a flat out cancelled hook, depending on the level of team play.
On top of that, what is being communicated with that argument is effectively "if flashbangs are in play, you WILL lose one down to them before you can start countering them, because you can't rely on the standard counterplay against them". If a killer can't just look at a wall, the obvious counterplay, and they haven't literally seen the survivor carrying the flashbang, they have no reasonable way of knowing that they need to counter flashbangs. It's giving the perk guaranteed value against all but the most paranoid of players.
Obviously, if you are staring directly at a wall, you shouldn't be blinded. That's pretty straightforward.
If the only effects of these changes is the removal of those two situations (and I am, as stated, open to the possibility that it's not, there may be more legitimate problems with how flashbangs are currently), then that hardly kills the perk. You can still get regular saves on out of position killers with it, you can still drop one as you round a corner in chase to take the killer off guard, you can still drop them at pallets, you still have all the standard utility of this perk. It doesn't need to be immune to counterplay to be worthwhile.
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It was unintended for flashbangs to work on killers that are looking directly at a wall. What you were doing with flashbangs, was bypassing intended mechanics.
And flashlight hug techs were unintended, so they needed to be nerfed.
8 -
Was wall bangs unintended though? The blind angle for firecrackers has been 90 degrees since they were added into the game.
Also the mechanics of flashlights and flashbangs are incomparable. They are two separate items with entirely different mechanics and timings behind them.
I didnt want this post to be twice as long as it should be so I kept this barebones and only relating to the pure mechanics of the bangs rather than diving into every single problematic situation or perk combo. We’d be here forever if we did that.
flashlight saves have a gradual buildup to the blind where the beam needs to cover the face. Bangs have a 2 second delay before being an instant blind, there is no build up.
lockers received blind immunity because once streamers started abusing double lockers with them, their viewers wanted to be like the streamer sitting in two side by side lockers for an hour, forcing killers to open one, while the other flashlight saves and hops right back in abusing perks like streetwise and built to last for more charges. One god beam gave about 22 grasp rescues before applying perk buffs. This was an unhealthy mechanic and was a valid nerfThis is why locker flashbangs work but not flashlights. Because flashbangs are instant after the 2 seconds is over. Youre blinding the killer instantly on the first few frames that they have control of their character. This type of save has no buffer to it. Its not handed to you for free. If you read the mechanics section, it explains the factors that affect the timing.
For example, lets say we are playing at 60 fps
A locker pull animation is 5 seconds
5 x 60 = 300 frames
The bang would need to be thrown at Frame 181 to blind at frame 301 IF we assume the ping on both sides is 0ms
However, in real games this is not the case. There is ping on both sides so you need to adjust your timing for varying amounts of ping on both survivor and killer side which is where skill expression comes into play. It requires a lot of game knowledge and experience with hitting these saves on different amounts of ping.
However, this is an issue as well. The time between when the player presses the input to throw the bang and the frame that the bang explodes is not consistent. It should be 120 frames (at 60fps) however, it varies inconsistently. Making frame perfect saves with the new blind angle pure LUCK.
As for wall saves, I am all for these being gutted ONCE they fix the other issues with bangs being inconsistent. Besides, wall bangs are only problematic because of background player. If there is no BGP in play, then its 100% a misplay on the killers behalf because the surv has to be within about 3 meters of the killer to actually throw the bang in time because they have to be there at the BEGINNING of the animation, not like flashlights where you have to blind towards the END of the animation. Its far riskier to have a bang.Background player is problematic even without bangs. It just needs to be reworked entirely.
Also another for wall bangs. Its a flat 90 degree angle to the left and the right of the killer camera. If you chase someone off who is close, just make them run a few steps, go back to your slug, and just ever so slightly turn your cam the opposite direction of where the surv was last seen, I promise you they wont get the save. They simply wont have time and thats why im trying to say its a misplay on the killers behalf unless exhaustion is in play.
As I said though, we’d be here all day if we try to yap about perk combos that are broken. It makes zero sense to nerf flashbang instead of the perks that are actually the issue such as BGP.
-1 -
Flashlight hug techs? Lol
-2 -
my only problem with bangs was the locker saves and maybe the audio when it gets thrown in the open
over nerfing a fun mechanic is not the way to go bhvr only the abusable parts needed fixing not nerfing the blind angle for no reason.
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I personally do not mind Locker Saves with Flashbangs, but what I do mind is Flashbang saves when Im facing into a wall.
Locker Saves require a good amount of coordination and positioning to pull off since the area they can only be done at is… well… Lockers. On top of that there are inconsistencies that you have to account for that can make them tricky to pull off. In fact, I would not mind if the original Locker Saves returned if double Lockers set-ups were removed.
However, Flashbang Saves when facing into a wall is kind of dumb. I think most people can recognize that the idea of "facing into a wall" is suppose to be the "universal way of avoiding blinds" and the fact that some items can bypass that does not feel right and significantly reduces counterplay for Killers.
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Flashlights and Flashbangs are extremely, directly comparable. They do the same job (blinding the killer), in mostly the same scenarios.
Something like Blast Mine would be incomparable because of how it works, but flashlights and flashbangs approach the same idea with mechanical variance, not approaching different ideas with one shared effect (as Blast Mine does). With this being the case, the notion that they shouldn't have the same counterplay is one that, at the very least, needs very thorough argumentation in support of it.
Wall saves are just antithetical to the way blind saves are supposed to work. You're supposed to be able to fool them with the right positioning, by looking at a wall; this leaves players who want to try for flashlight saves needing to either capitalise on killers who have the wrong positioning, or needing to strategise with their teammates where appropriate to try and have them go down too far from a wall for the killer to fool it. This is already a healthy, skill expressive element of the game, and it only works because looking at a wall is supposed to fool blind saves. If a killer can have the right positioning and still lose the hook because they didn't know flashbangs were in the game and suddenly the central bedrock of the positioning game requires different approaches, that hints to a problem. Bare minimum, assuming everything you say is taken completely on board and accepted, the killer is expected to lose to flashbangs once regardless of how they play. I don't think that's fair, healthy, or interactive.
As for locker saves, I'll absolutely grant you they aren't easy. That doesn't really mean as much as you think when it comes to whether they should be in the game, though. Once you've reached the point where you can do it consistently, all it takes is a single other person to be on comms with you and strategising one or two extra perk picks for the killer to have very little ways to respond.
Basically, you're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place here, in terms of argumentation. Because locker saves are either very inconsistent without coordination/synergies, or they're unfair with coordination/synergies… they're kind of just unhealthy, period. It's not a problem for them to be patched out, even if they might be fun to try for occasionally.
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The flashbang is dropped beneath the survivor, so it shouldn’t be infinitely close to the wall, so it shouldn’t be within 90 degrees of the killer.
Players were bypassing this with flashbang hug techs, where they would hug the killer’s model so closely that they overlapped with them.
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Flashbangs now work as they were always intended to work, it was never intended that the survivor model could clip into a killers model so that they could get a blind which a killer couldn't avoid - even when facing a wall. Same as the audio and blind radius - you should not be blinded when looking up (which was happening) and you should not be blinded if the flashbang is not within your range of vision, hence we adjusted the angles. There has to be a way for the killer to avoid the flashbang, before it was incredibly easy to just drop the bang and the killer would be blinded with no way to avoid it, that's definitely not something that was ever intended to happen.
Whilst I appreciate that those who enjoy using flashbangs, have to now learn the new radius etc, the previous version was bugged.
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Kinda sucks. I think the issue wasn't even flashbangs. It was Background Player. Without Background Player you have to stealth REALLY well to not be found before the killer picks and actually required some form of brain power to get the save. Background player took all of the pre-planning and coordination needed to hit a successful flashbang save away. You nerfed flashbang instead of the perk that enables easy, free saves. Revert it like you did Xeno's bad changes. I beg. Otherwise, another fun thing was taken away from survivor to make the killer role even easier. Unfortunate L.
-9 -
It wasn't just Background Player, Flashbang was the issue here, blinding from an angle where the killer cannot even see was never an intended action.
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The Spirit has entered the chat.
For real, though, that's super disappointing. I guess Killers can become invisible and kill Survivors that can't see them. But Survivors can't save a teammate when slightly out of LoS. Welp. GG. RIP Flashbang.
-18 -
I guess Killers can become invisible and kill Survivors that cant see them. But Survivors cant save a teammate when slightly out of LoS.
Comparing Apples to Bananas.
Survivors cannot see Spirit's current position while she is phasing, but Spirit cannot see the Survivor's current position either. Both sides are reliant upon using what information (audio from both sides) they have and making reads based on it. Spirit has also been nerfed and adjusted a lot (rightfully so since release Spirit was busted).
Flashbangs are different. The range for Flashbangs was really far and the blind radius made it so you could get some absurd blinds. To make matters worse, you could also get blinded when looking away or when looking up because they were bugged, as well as the audio not playing properly, leading to situations where you just lose a down because of things out of your control. They needed adjustments.
To put it bluntly, the biggest distinction between the two is design and intention.
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Sure
-11 -
Was Oni always intended to do 180 degree turns while traveling twice the speed of a survivor with an insta down hitbox the size of Demo's lunge?
-1 -
flashbang should still blind the killers if its thrown under their feet regardless if they were facing a wall or not, it made sense that bang would blind killers because its thrown under their feet. that's an intended mechanic since the release of firecrackers back in 2017.. so why remove it now??
wall bangs are what set them apart from flashlights. why do they exist otherwise lol
-17 -
REVERT FLASHBANG
-5 -
right Mandy the double standards with this is crazy I’ve played this game since release oni was always meant to have a 90 cap lock on his power but since people complained it got made into a feature but you literally kill a perk that was already fair and balanced and just say oh it was a bug yeah right…
-9 -
Should totally be reverted.
-10 -
tell me how fair it is that you can throw a grenade at the killer's animation and the killer won't be able to do anything?
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tell me how fair it is that oni had a uncounterable exploit that completely broke his power and made it unfair a feature ? The double standards these days are so funny especially from developers I get the clipping into killers yeah that shouldn’t happen but looking at a wall should not counter a flashbang as it’s still exploding at the killers feet !!!
-9 -
Have not read through it all yet, but I noticed the note about you should be getting blinds at a 90 degree angle when the killer is facing a wall.
Blinding from a 90 degree angle doesn't make sense even without a wall. Realistically, if you can't see a direct light source it won't be blinding you. Even seeing a beam wouldn't blind you. Sure it's not real life, but it would make just as much sense as shining light at their foot and getting a blind. If the killer has gone out of their way to ensure it is literally impossible to see the light source, then it's unreasonable to ask that they get blinded from it.
However, let's just say we completely ignore basic light physics 101 and say it has the magical power to avoid traveling in a straight line until it bounces off something and instead can magically curve around mid-air, wrap around the killers head, then inject itself directlyinto their retina...you're saying it's the killers fault for not looking around every nook and cranny, around every corner, around every rock, through every window, and every bush...not to mention survivors moving to spots the killer already checked...and since background player is a thing where survivors can literally travel half of the entirety of some maps, that the killer must continue to run off for the next several minutes checking every possible place all while the downed survivor would have already been healed off of the ground. Thats just an unrealistic expectation.
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So you compare the ability of the killer who should get it by outplaying the survivor, and then using it wisely (survivors can easily drop pallets and jump into windows and Oni won't be able to do anything about it)with the ability to take away the hook from the killer no matter what?
What kind of hypocrisy is this, you're just crying that your noskill toy was taken away from you and now u need have skill to get the result6 -
I’m not gonna argue with someone with lack of knowledge on the subject at hand here so you have a nice day !
-11 -
That's a lot of words to say "acshually I should be allowed to use this exploit"
10 -
Thank you.
4 -
didn't read the wall of text but i'm glad flashbangs got gutted they were uncounterable outside of lightborn
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I think that, if this Flashbang change stays, Lightborn needs to be changed as well. Instead of permanent immunity to getting blinded, a cooldown or a number of stacks (potentially rechargeable) could work.
-7 -
Honestly i read a lot of people that think lightborn is ok, i disagree very much, a perk that negates an entire playstyle is not healthy imo. this change could work (maybe also give a feedback to the surv when they try to blind the killer and he has lightborn, like an audio cue. only because with a flashbang it's hard to understand if u missed or he has the perk)
-6 -
Hi Mandy, I appreciate you commenting on this, but the issue is, I think think bangs were accidentally OVER CORRECTED. Like I said in my post above, I'm completely fine with not being able to blind against a wall, or locker saves being buggy, or bangs that are directly under the killer.
The issue is…now you can't even get them from angles that FLASH LIGHTS can. This makes them almost unusable in chase unless the killer is animation locked. For example, These pictures show angles that are not successful at blinding the killer, but I 100% could get these with a flash light. I don't know if it's INTENDED that the blind zone was tweaked this hard or an accident. I'm bringing this up, because I think it might be a bug / accidental over correction.
On top of this, I know the main post doesn't address this, but it seems that audio was over corrected as well. This used to be one of my favorite chase perks, but when you guys fixed the bugged audio from Christmas through now, you actually made it much louder than it ever was. Now bangs are heard every time they're pre-dropped in chase or for a save. Before Christmas if the survivor knew where to put them to muffle the sound, it wouldn't be super loud, you could hear them if you listened closely. Now it's ALWAYS loud.
This has been a thing since release, the same way it's much harder to hear certain killer powers when they're behind walls, but now every FB sounds like its right next to them.
I agree silent bangs were brutal, but the way they worked before Christmas was not silent, just muffled if the survivor had the knowledge to know how to do that.
Honestly, I wouldn't even care that the radius was nerfed so hard if you guys buffed the detonation time. The issue with FB is that the window to get a blind/save is so small that you have to be rather close to the killer, even with BGP or SB, you almost have to be a couple feet behind them with this new radius, so it becomes extremely hard to do. The killer basically has to not be paying attention to pick up with you close enough to get it, since you have to drop it within the 1st second of the pickup animation, since it takes 3 seconds to detonate and you have to be a few feet in front of them now. If FB was buffed to explode within 2 seconds like a beamer, this change would be completely fine, but it wasn't.
-2 -
Mandy, firstly I truly appreciate actually hearing feedback about the issue from the team at all. Sadly i really feel that this response is an incredibly low effort reply to a very detailed and researched issue that is echoed throughout an entire community of the game. Moreover it feels disingenuous to write these interactions off as a bug that has just existed in the game for coming on a decade and this change is just now coming seemingly out of the blue as a vague bugfix. I also feel it is inaccurate to say that this is needed so that the killer has agency in preventing a save of any kind from happening, this is simply not true, there is a variety of perks that can assist, a variety of actions you can take, and attempting these saves could just as easily result in more pressure for the killer. What is your incentive for using flashbang if flashlights do the same thing from a safer distance and enter the trial able to be re-used a large number of times. furthermore this response addresses only wall saves and extreme angles, there is a large amount of information in this post that this change has affected. I implore you to take a closer look at the post and share it with the team and to perhaps consider changing this in a way that keeps this playstyle alive and fair for both sides.
-1 -
so they fixed an exploit, you're not happy and want them to revert it.
Let's also bring back the that old change back in Feb 2018 or 19 (don't remember which one) where if a killer was stunned or blinded at any point of a pick up animation, it led to a losing grasp of a picked up survivor.
Not enough, bring back flashlights phasing into lockers for immunity.
It's not that survivor is too hard, I just don't want to put in effort for a large amount of reward.
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I understand the pain of seeing a perk you like get nerfed, but the issue with Flashbang is that it was glitched in an unintended manner. SWFs would abuse this to place the Flashbang in ways the Killer genuinely couldn't counter, like inside of their model while picking up facing a wall or while looking up, and due to the way the hitbox was the Killer could not avoid the blind. The timing on this wasn't even that hard especially with stuff like Background Player being overtuned, so the result was basically an uncounterable blind.
That obviously was not fair for Killer, any more than the Xeno tail being over buffed on launch was fair for Survivors, so they removed it. Asking for it back is not healthy and the exact wrong thing to want in terms of game balance.
1 -
i’m completely with tensa here.
There’s no point in further discussion though. While I appreciate Mandy responding to this post. I’d like to say that was probably the most lackluster official response I have ever seen. I am genuinely disappointed in the team if that is your final decision and all you have to say in a very-detailed post that highlights an issue, provides data and proof to mechanics of an item being bugged, offers suggestions for balance and addresses counter arguments. You will address wall bangs, blinding outside of LOS, and clipping through killers (which was patched over a month ago btw! Nobody brought this up because it is not an issue!!) as an exploit and unintended mechanic.
An unintended mechanic? That was in the game for nearly a decade? Why was it not changed like 7 years ago? All you guys did was change a tunable value which is like 6-7 keypresses
Yall lost a few of your most dedicated players yet again. Congratulations.Post edited by Rizzo on-2 -
No
At the end of the day it doesnt matter how difficult it is if a surv can hit it consistently, it doesnt matter how rare these players are,, and it doesnt change the fact that any 2 man can hump a locker and force a blind save. Going for "someone else" isnt a viable option here because 1. youll get called out 2. they could be running the same thing.
-5
