Disable Pain Res if a Survivor is Dead at 4/5 Gens.
The Problem:
Frankly, the game is designed as a 4v1. That is why tunneling is so effective; it reduces the game to a 3v1 scenario in which the odds are heavily stacked to the killer (obviously). If a player is dead at 5 gens, the game is essentially a loss for survivors. It's unproductive to give survivors insane speed, endurance, no scratchmarks, etc., when survivors can already bring perks such as DS, OTR, DH, and more. What needs to be evaluated is the 3v1 situation, especially at 4 and 5 gens, without punishing the killer player for gameplay to the level of disrupting or limiting their player agency.
The Long-Term Solution:
While a blanket gen repair speed buff for remaining survivors in a trial, if the right conditions are met, is ultimately the correct solution to tunneling, this may be too abrasive to initially implement. [The condition of a survivor dying at 3, 4, or 5 gens is met, similar to the bonuses in 2v8.] The "hyper-turbo-tunneling" playstyle is mitigated when the 3v1 scenario is slightly more evened out. To highlight this, many survivors will not bother to work on gens if there is already a player dead at 4 or 5 gens, seeing it as pointless. Yet, once the knowledge of "evened-out" gen repair speeds is implemented in a match, it may encourage survivors to continue to play even with a killed teammate.
The Easier Solution:
Collectively, we should begin balancing by looking at what actually informs player gameplay and alters strengths and playstyles: Perks. Many perks for survivors are outright disabled once endgame begins, such as DS, OTR, and others. This is a good thing. While all the gens being completed is an indication of the killer losing, when is that moment for survivor? Typically, it is most commonly "decided" for the survivors when there is a player dead with multiple gens remaining. It is poor game balance to allow large gen slowdown perks to work with a player dead at 4 or 5 gens. If a player is tunneling aggressively at 5 gens and has a kill by 4 gens remaining, it is currently possible to continue to have 3 pain res hooks to regress gens.
Similar to the state of certain survivor perks that disable in endgame, there should be a limit or caveat on gen regression perks that prevent them from further use if the condition of a survivor dying at 4 or 5 gens is met. Pain res would disable outright. If a player is playing killer in a match and has killed someone with 5 gens remaining, are pain res and other slowdown perks necessary to win? It's unlikely.
It is possible that this change could encourage players to spread hooks more appropriately and shy away from tunneling playstyles.
Comments
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I actually agree with this title. Remove all gen regression/slowdown if a person dies before the mid point of the gens aka 3 gens. There is no justification for the killer side to have gen slowdown/regression if they got into a 3v1 situation at 4/5 gens
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Why should a killer be punished just for gaining an advantage in the game...?
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There are other ways for killers to gain advantages, other than tunneling someone out at 5 gens.
That's what this is about.Spreading pressure, being practically omnipresent makes it a lot harder to sit on gens.
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This has been proven time and time again to be a bad thing. Lets say hypothetically you hook a survivor twice, now that survivor becomes "immune". They can intentionally throw themselves at the killer, get in the way, and be a bother and the killer can do nothing to stop them because if they do "oh well you did the bad thing so now you get punished naughty killer".
Even with the whole like "oh slugging for a long time is bad and slugging the whole team is bad. Like, there are plenty of times where like a bubba, or a trickster can just down the whole team because they get totally outplayed. Why should they be given another chance at that point to get back into the match when they messed up so badly that all 4 of them get downed in rapid succession?
I don't understand this fascination with punishing a killer for playing well and doing exactly the thing they are supposed to be doing.
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If they intentionally get in the way, or playing in an aggressive manner, I have no problem slugging them on the ground for a bit, while I do my business elsewhere.
Like, there are plenty of times where like a bubba, or a trickster can just down the whole team because they get totally outplayed. Why should they be given another chance at that point to get back into the match when they messed up so badly that all 4 of them get downed in rapid succession?
I did this, but with Myers. I have no problem giving people a second chance, if I feel like the game was over too quickly.
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Also no, you can't slug them, because we already determined we don't like that, and survivors should be able to just pick themselves up remember?
So should killers get one too? Maybe if the survivors pop a gen in the first chase before the first hook they all get injured? Or maybe they all get a repair speed penalty? Should they also get punished for playing too well?
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If a surv dies before even two gens are finished it means that game was rigged by the matchmaker from the start. I dont think these survivors would play that out properly and rightfully so because it is unwinnable
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so what happens when 2-3 gens are popped in the first chase? will the remaining gens be blocked till the killer gets 2 hooks on each survivor to address gen speeds?
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Im sorry but this sort of thing was already tested 2 ptbs ago. Gen Defense is already weak because you must win ur chases to get value in any Gen regression perk (well most).
I would agree if there wasn't so many weaker Killers in the game (Trapper, Ghostface, Skull Marchant, Twins) so this may just make tunneling worse.
My idea of a Anti tunnel is to rework how Survivors are Sacrificed to the Entity. And the idea would be is that When the Killer picks up the Survivor they Give the Survivor to The Entity and the Entity takes that survivor to a Random location away from The Killer and Survivors. The Killer can see There Sacrificed progress but not where the Survivor is. This will not remove tunneling but make it much more difficult for the killer to find where the survivor is hooked.
To also solve Survivors purposefully letting there teammates die on hook by blocking the Gens with the most progress until the survivor is Unhooked or Sacrificed. (This will depend on the Killer. Like if its D to B tier its 2 Gens with the most progress. If its A tier its a random Gen with Progress on it. If its S Tier the Gens will not be Blocked at all. Yes I thought of the Stronger Killers).
This will help Supress tunneling so its much more rare and giving Killers no reason to tunnel depending on there Killer.
This will very much like the 2v8 cages but put into the 1v4 mode. This will help with tunneling without limitations or punishments and everyone is happy
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i disagree with you saying twins is weak. she incredibly strong it's just that no one plays her
also the meta would just swap to slugging if those changes went through that or killers will eventually figure out general locations to tunnel through gamesense
also people have to stop with this variable balancing where certian killers do better or worse depending on "tier" since it's up to behaviors mercy not to dumpster a killer on a random tuesday
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When I said its completely random its completely random. Meaning the Killer will never know where there hooked. Plus i did mention it will not remove tunneling. It will only make it more rare.
2nd of all most of the Killers in the game are infact weaker. I number 1 reason Killers Tunnel is Gen Speeds. This way of doing it doesn't hurt either side. Ur way is unhealthy and abuse able.
Its not the Killers fault or the survivors fault its the game Design thats the Issue.
Instead of gutting one side to solve a issue maybe Ask Killers why we are tunneling so much. You might get the answer and solution to solving the problem.
There is Killers who just tunnel just to tunnel but not every single Killer plays like that.
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A killer who practices to win a fight and then gets punished for doing so in real life is a flawed game system. Would you ask someone you've just knocked out to go easy on you in a boxing match?
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the reason why i say killers will figure it out is because like wirh pyramid cages the "random hook location" has to have some spawn logic to not clip into a building, rock, wall or gen or just spawn next to the killer since it's "random" and since pyramid's cages exist i assume they'll work similarly which you can guess where the cages spawn
if your changes specifically
>The Killer can see There Sacrificed progress but not where the Survivor is. This will not remove tunneling but make it much more difficult for the killer to find where the survivor is hooked.
i would immediately start slugging instead of hooking since healing is still strong so they'll be able to reset quicker instead of me slugging where i know where they are and they have to come to that location instead of potentally spawning closer to a survivor them resetting and both of them hopping on a gen
>Instead of gutting one side to solve a issue maybe Ask Killers why we are tunneling so much. You might get the answer and solution to solving the problem.
i do want to gut one side and it's suvivors since gen regression has been nerfed for years + 8 kick limit (which is an auto win for survivor) the solution is buff gen regression and buff the low tiers to houndmaster's "tier" and still as i said before it's behaviors mercy that they just don't randomly dumpster a killer
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We already have a number of perks that disable in endgame (like DS, OTR, etc…), so yes, Survivors are already punished for doing well.
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That's fine, as long as I get some compensation for when 2+ gens pop in my first chase. I want all Gens Speeds reduced by 50% until I get a kill thank you. Happy to spread those hooks, not tunnel or slug if you slow my gens down.
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That's a good way to get a killer to slug in a 3v1. Just sayin'…
And it is EXTREMELY RARE for a killer to have a kill with 4 gens up, survivors must be slacking pretty hard or just messing around, and there's no way for a killer to know that.
Most of the time you'll get 1-2 gens popping in the first hook (That doesn't apply to Nurse, Blight, etc).
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In other words, if someone is expected to drop out of the game, you need to leave the generator just short of completion to impose a penalty on the Killer.
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Can survivors lose gen speed perks if 2 genes are done before any kills?
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I do think it's worth pointing out that the "punishment" the killer receives here is that they gain slightly less of a huge advantage compared to live servers.
It's not even resetting the killer player to neutral - they lose access to remaining Pain Res tokens, and in exchange, gain the ability to halt generator repair entirely through basic gameplay alone. Someone dead is a huge advantage, having access to strong slowdown perks on top of that is overkill.
Broadly, to OP's topic more generally, I do think this kind of restriction is helpful for slowdown perks. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that most of them should be balanced around disabling when someone dies period, regardless of gen count.
It's not the only change I'd make, but it would be a good one.2 -
No, a perk isn't an "advantage" it is a core mechanic of the game. You don't get to rebrand it just to fit your narrative.
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The advantage is the dead survivor. Currently slowdown perks stack on top of that advantage, but removing that stacking does not remove the core advantage.
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If we're calling getting less of an advantage a punishment, then why should survivors be 'punished' when two of them work on a gen simultaneously? Why should they be 'punished' by losing DS for finishing all the generators? They're just doing their objective. Or be 'punished' with window blockers for looping? Or bloodlust for chases going too long? Or killers for standing too close to a hook? Or not getting a stack of Devour because an unhook happend too fast? Etc etc etc.
If you think that Pain Res is truly a healthy perk that promotes spreading hooks, then it should be fine to disable it when it's used for other purposes, because it's 10 times stronger when used to tunnel. And it'd STILL probably be used to tunnel because you're likely to get at least half its effects and the 3v1 gen situation is ######### because there are simply not enough hands left at that point to progress the game when one survivor is hooked, one rescuing, and one chased.
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You are literally saying that the "punishment" that the killer would receive by disabling gen perks, is actually not a punishment but that they receive less of a "benefit"
No you don't get to do that, perks are a core mechanic of the game. You don't get to say that they are a "benefit" and taking it away just means "well you lost your benefit" no thats not how that works.
How about if a gen gets done before a hook survivors lose all their exhaustion perks? You aren't really losing anything, you are just losing a benefit that you get in the normal game.
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I don't think that's a very helpful comparison, but to answer it: Those two things aren't linked.
It isn't being suggested that all of a killer's perks disable with this condition- OP didn't even commit to specifically stating all slowdown perks, just Pain Resonance in particular.
Those perks are perks that are specifically helpful for slowing the generator progress down. If you gain the advantage of being able to slow the generator progress down to zero all on your own, getting to put repair into the negatives with Pain Resonance is clearly unnecessary and overkill.
In other words, there's a direct link between the specific perks being talked about, and the proposed disabling condition.
The question may then become talking about survivor generator speed perks, and if those should disable after a certain amount of generators are done, and to that we would necessarily have to ask: Is there actually currently a problem created by those tools being active after that phase of the game the way that there is for the killer tools being discussed?
Personally, I would answer no. Any problematic generator speed tools are specifically used on the first few generators, and any unbalanced options would be unbalanced when used that way too. The response to that problem would be to tackle the tools directly because that would actually address the specific problem.
Compare that to the current situation, where early 1v3 situations are already extremely difficult to overcome and slowdown perks present an unnecessary extra barrier, but those slowdown perks aren't particularly problematic used earlier in the match or while everyone's alive.The game's asymmetrical, you can't expect the solutions to even roughly equivalent problems on both sides to be identical.
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I just want the og pain res back. I want to be rewarded for hook farming. the whole point of the token system was because people took pain res "just" to do some regression while you tunnel 1 guy out but buffing the regression to put it on a token system just made it more annoying for skillful killers who overwhelm survivors, but it became even more annoying for survivors with the bigger regression.
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This is just like old ruin. At least until this new update dropped, I'm not trying to lose a perk slot because survivors are misplaying. That's their owm fault for dying that early. If you're not doing gens, don't expect the killer to get punished, you're getting punished for not doing the objective.
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that's what they tried with old ruin and it dumpstered ruin if killer perks disabled themselves after one person died the meta would shift dropping all gen regression and just swapping to chase perks (till their nerfed into the ground too) and people will swap to exclusively high tiers and tunnel more
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Assuming you're referring to 6.1.0's changes there, it was the combination of both nerfs that led to Ruin being a little mediocre.
If they'd reversed the other nerf, and we had 200% Ruin that disables when someone dies, it'd be even better than it is now and healthier to boot.
Though, honestly, Ruin isn't even necessarily one of the perks I'd choose for this particular change, since it also already has a deactivation trigger.
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Plenty of survivor perks and mechanics get disabled if survivors are doing well with their objective and get gens done. It makes sense that some killer perks or mechanics could use some disable conditions tacked on if they're already doing really well in the match.
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People who hard tunnel at 5 gens go into the lobby intending to do so. They just won't bring pain res if this happens, and many probably already don't. The scope of this would be far too small to have any effect.
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Alright. When we stop giving survivors extended haste and endurance after the exit gates are open since thats when its supposed to be "fair play" but they keep giving the protections anyway.
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These perks are dissabled in endgame for one reason, they would make getting last kill almost impossible if survivors play good which isnt fair because even devs stated at this point there isnt much what can killer do so that why they are dissabled smae would go for gen regression if it would effect gate progress in endgame but it doesnt these perks are dead when all gens are poped.
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The same can apply for Killer, too. If one person is dead at five gens, it makes escape almost impossible.
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That can be said when killer gets first hook when 3 gens are already done (one bad chase and 3 people that went for gen each from the start) its mostly gg if he doesnt gain preasure immediately and kills one survivor before last one is done.
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Pretty much its same as bringing medkit or flashlight, no one is bringing it to the match as random pick but they bring it because they intend to use it so Idk what these people think if killer wants to tunnel hardcore at 5 gens he will do it always because he is alredy decided before the match even starts to do it (different thing is if killer goes for one survivor straight when 3 gens are done before he can get hook, it happens and I get he just says srew this I go for this one because he doesnt care at this point).
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If removing tokens, and make RNG of scourge hook tokens more consistent, disabling this perk if kill happened before 6 hooks doesn't sound bad.
If it still 4 tokens and ######### RNG no one would care about such proposal.
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Because some players feel entitled to escape no matter how poorly they play.
I would actually be ok with some kind of minor comeback mechanic for both sides just to make it slightly less likely that one side steamrolls the other. The 2v8 gen speed buffs/nerfs depending on number of hooks seems like a reasonable thing to try in normal 1v4 mode.
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If one person is dead on 5-4 gens, it’s like killer being in endgame with 3 hooks. No one to blame but themselves or MMR.
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Ruin was worse than mediocre then the regression was 100% instead of what we have now or 200% as it have when it ws in its best and the the perk was still hex so you could loose it in first minute of the match or it dissabled when someone died which was even needed for hardcore tunneling them because people killed themself on the hook all the time back them (peak was when they faced merchant) so it was bad perk and if same would be done with regression then meta would only shifted to gen blocking perks with endgame options that made tunneling even more better because most of gen regression perks require from killer to go and kick gens or best one (the most used) pain res requires fresh hooks which gen slowdown and endgame perks doesnt need they just buy you time and some like currupt+deadlock+noway out+ blood warden can make you basicaly win even if they rush all gens the build like this will stall the survivors from progressing on gens and then gives you one more minute to get hook and then you can even get one more minute or even kill whole team by blocking them in and letting the endgame timer to run out.
Other thing is there can be multiple of perks on survivor side that are strong and get dissabled in endgame like OTR,DS but killer is still one against 4 so his perks logicaly has to be powerfull because DBD is lot about perks if prks has small effects and game wasnt build around them then I would get it but thats not the case in this game, having certain perks depends a lot and it changes the outcome of the game compleatly.
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I was hard tunneled at 5 gens by three separate killers yesterday. It was clearly how they intended to play as they either never left the hook long or immediately dropped chase the moment I was unhooked. These were their builds:
Tunneling killers don't care about gen regress. The early tunnel is all they need. The regress is pointless if you have a 3v1 at 5 gens.
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If they put unique hooks into game and gave killers small pain res like 5-7% maybe 8% for each unique hook with some small haste bonus then it would be ok but current pain res is perk that doesnt support tunneling (hardcore one but normal one too) compare to old pain res that benefited tunnelers more than any other regression perk and gave more advantage stronger killers that can get downs far more easily than weaker ones like nurse,ghoul,blight,billy compare to trapper,ghostface,bubba.
But thats something we must wait for and hope it will come the unique hooks bonus and better antitunnel will come one day I think.
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Interesting is the pure chase build but i bet it was ghoul or other strong killer, the slowdowns or endgame perks are still there like corrupt or noed they are better pick for hardcore tunnelers than regression perks tbh with some chase perk to get those survivors faster.
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Demo, Legion, and Ghoul, in order. The Legion was a p100 and showed every sign that this is the only way they play. Pretty much a professional tunneler. I don't see why anyone who plays this way would run pain res when they could run chase perks that make their tunneling even easier, especially since pain res is already a perk that works from unique hooks.
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I’m impressed that you had at least two states with opportunity to be on hook for 70 seconds each, had total of 30 seconds of endurance, two opportunities for chases, killers had the cheapest and primitive builds possible, two of killers from roaster are primitive and “low tier”, and non of your teammates wasn't able to complete 90 second gen with zero pressure. And all of this three times within one day.
Your teammates either farmed, or something really funny happened here.
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Not sure what this implication is supposed to be but here's some more info.
The Ghoul match:
Badham. Hooks were on the street. He either proxyed or hurled himself back to the hook the moment I was unhooked. The Vittorio had zero caution about unhooking me.
The Demo match:
Hawkins. Proxying. The Nea was the only escape in all three of these matches. He'd downed her too, but gave mercy hatch.
The Legion match:
I was unhooked in the Legion's face repeatedly and they just stood there and waited so they could hit me the moment I got unhooked. So that extra endurance and haste did me zero good. In most cases, I was unhooked almost immediately after being hooked, so that 70 seconds didn’t happen. I was in a duo in these matches. I can't control randoms unhooking me at stupid times. I'd love to never play with another random again, but I'm afraid my weird hours and everyone hating this game has shrunk my friend pool, so I get to deal with both scuzzy killlers and idiot teammates. I'm also not a great looper, something I've never been quiet about admitting.
Out of the 19 matches I played in this session, I was hard tunneled these three times, camped into second stage in the basement twice, and slugged repeatedly by a griefing, aura-reading (and probably smurfing) Nurse who refused to hook anyone until she'd downed all four of us.
So just an overall great time with all these high skill, challenge-loving players I always hear about.
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I didn’t ask for what killer were doing. Survivors :/ And if they had 4 minutes each match and each of them ended for you on 5 gens — clearly u all was meant to die in any way. Nothing about killer strategy here. They farmed you and made you go next. If that kind of servers and gameplay on NA are, I’m not surprised you having high KR yourself.
Killers just don’t care about idiotic teammates or your level of looping. As much as survivor doesn’t care about killer pick, or nice 8hooking, or “skillful way of play”
If they want to play, they playing the game. They aren’t charity shop or therapist to help with skill and bad team work/unlucky circumstances from other side. Yeah, maybe that’s something that defines skill and what is so unfun for you. The only thing I see - this killer are actually better, because they did something, and your team nothing. They don’t play along with others’ issues and that’s why you dislike them so much. They don’t solve or compensate troubles BHVR accumulated for years.
This is BHVR duty to show people how to do gens and simply play the game, because there are already bunch of players who doing it without struggle and the only challenge they can get is terrible MMR, maps or nasty tunneler. I literally quit DBD because of my teammates and that BHVR doesn’t work on actual QoL, because worked on some request from one half of players only to be it scrapped by other half. It either was extreme lack of challenge and boredom because killer played nice or got unlucky with MMR, or teams fell as soon as game provides some stressful moment. I barely had actually good matches because of MMR and farming, and that’s not about escapes - I stopped care about this after went on 50%. If that’s what DBD is about- playing along players and game not working, while players who actually played are target of contempt by players who even can’t stand in chase against them (aka - just play the game), I don’t need to understand community or devs.
When sentiment “fix x mentality” will cover part of fandom who loves to farm or have allergy on main objectives, then I stop thinking this CC is doomed to poison own game.
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Perks are advantages— here's why. While the game is asymmetrical, imagine for a moment that you have two completely equal-skilled teams competing in a tournament. They take turns and alternate on the same map with no spawn variation whatsoever (every loop is the same every time). The same killer is chosen each time as well. Now, also imagine that one of these teams is allowed to bring perks and items with no restrictions, while the 2nd team is not allowed to. The match will be decided by perks alone; their existence inherently is an advantage.
The same applies outside of a strict tournament setting, too; it's universal in 1v4 dbd. A player on Killer running strong perks with add-ons will likely beat a team running nothing, or vice versa. While we have all seen competitive teams run no perks and absolutely crush casual killer players, these are rare outliers and do not reflect the broad overall casual experience.-2
