Trickster Update Feedback

I think the knife count is great, and for those who are struggling with it have add-ons to help. The lower knife count actually gives survivors chance to win a chase against trickster, which they should be able to, especially after a survivor failed at as little as a 33.3% accuracy

I personally think even the current laceration decay timer is great. Great Trickster players like Wacek have shown repeatedly and at pretty much most loops in the game, it's definitely possible to keep up laceration if you play the Trickster right.

This is amazing because this means that if survivors are failing to keep up laceration, it can be mostly attributed to a skill issue, even if they don't want to admit it.

The limited knives to 36 as well as the current laceration decay are at a level where they are more fair to survivors, where survivors have genuine counterplay in reducing laceration if a Trickster keeps screwing up too much.

Though Trickster definitely deserves some buffs still, it shouldn't be in these 2 areas because they are currently fairly balanced. And with being fairly balanced that means good survivors will be able to make less-proficient tricksters run out of knives as well as cause decay, which is consequently why Tricksters will have this experience while learning the killer. That is not a problem in the Trickster's design. That is exactly the Trickster's design, which means that well playing survivors will be able to make lower tier tricksters run out of knives, and vice versa, Good tricksters will be able to keep up with knives and laceration against good survivors. The Devs have nailed this perfectly right now

I FOUND THE LINK! The actual rework the person made started around 5:59 (the streamer made a 4.6 / 6 knives trickster)

NOTE: This video was created BEFORE the COMEBACK rework, while the 8 knives / 4.6 trickster was on live servers

FWIW, I always wanted to play Trickster but I couldn't because I was so bad at aiming knives. And then I could play for a while when he got a speed boost because I mostly just used him as an M1 killer. This update has allowed me to play "properly" using the knives for the first time because there's an add-on that lets you have a crosshair in the middle of the screen. If nothing else, that's the most important change for me.

Feedback on Base kit

Movement speed while throw

I'd like you to consider whether the penalty of slowing down the Trickster's movement speed just for entering Throw State and throwing 1 or 2 knives is really necessary. Should throwing just 1 or 2 knives be punishable?
For the first 2-3 seconds of throw state, movement speed might be better left as normal(4.4m/s), without being slowed. Alternatively, it might be better to make this effect apply to specific add-on instead of base kit. This makes it easier to chase survivors while throwing knives little by little.

More buff S-rank effects

I feel that the strength and euphoria of S-rank are still lacking. Adding the following enhancements when the S-rank, would make it even stronger and more appealing at S-rank.

• Movement speed (only S-rank) increased from 4.4 m/s to 4.6 m/s.
• Time to enter Throw State (only S-rank): Buffed from 0.3s to 0.2s
• Time to exit Throw State (only S-rank): Buffed from 1.15s to 1.0s
• Each knife in the main event gains 1 time ricochet. If the "Trick Blades" add-on is equipped, increased ricochet amount in the main event from 1 to 2.

Prevent lacerated survivors from being healed the injury

I've made this suggestion before. How about making it so that survivors who are injured and lacerated enter a Broken State (meaning their injuries cannot be healed) until their laceration meter runs out?
This allows Trickster to somewhat delay the healing of survivors, and even if he completely loses sight of an injured survivor with laceration 5/6, his knife throws are less likely to be wasted. In particular, it will be a powerful counter to skilled survivors who try to lure the killer with "injured and 99% self-care meter", giving Trickster a unique new advantage.
In the first place, it's feel counterintuitive that they can heal "Injured" state while in "Lacerated" state.

Increased knife laceration damage against Exposed survivors

How about increasing the amount of laceration damage from knife throws against Exposed survivors by 50%–100%? In other words, Trickster can damage an Exposed survivors with 3-4 knife hits.
This change will make throwing knives at Exposed survivors less of a foolish move, and will allow even the 4.4m/s Trickster to effectively utilize Exposed-related perks. Actually, without a buff like this, Trickster probably wouldn't be able to make use of his unique perk "Starstruck."

(My English isn't very good, thank you for reading.)

This patch has not been a nerf. They simply removed "Run Down" Trickster where you could just run down survivors and slowly kill them, like another legion, and turned him into a killer where you actually have to try being accurate and not just spam. Where you actually have to try using more subtle mechanics, like needle shots and long range shots, which has added dept to the killer he didn't have before.

Which means that surely, people that don't know how to play him feel like he has been nerfed, because the run-down playstyle that the survivor community absolutely despises is no longer functional (which is great), yet has managed to make Trickster a powerhouse among the ranged killer community, with the ability to quickly close down games with killer instincts, quick time to kill, lots of intel, and has buffed good Trickster players significantly, who are able to go on high win-streaks with his excellent Rework

Sure, he can still use some buffs in some aspects, but not in the areas that buff Run-Down trickster that is frequently posted by the community in this thread that simply are refusing to learn the killer and posting out of skill issue. They should feel happy, knowing that if they invest time in learning the killer now, they actually somewhat have a monster waiting for them. And if they're failing to get results, they simply know to get good

I really like him! Style meter is good, 6 blade injure feels nice, VFX are phenomenal etc. As others have said the shift to 4.4 while understandable has made him very easy to w key away from. I think you should make him 4.6 again; If it does turn out to be a problem, you can always just set it back anyways.

I'll also say main event can be difficult to get value from unless you catch somebody in the middle of nowhere. A slight speed boost to throw move speed in main event would help with this, but I dont think that'd be necessary if he was to be 4.6 again. overall great, having lots of fun as MiNa!

Topic: Unable to use Mainevent near hooks - What??

So let me get this straight. We have to "fight" to level up to S- tier and watch it decay in many games, thus getting no use of it, and unable to use it when near hooks EVEN if gates are powered.

WHILE…NUMEROUS other killers can "Hold" their tier2 or tier3 power and camp hooks with it like Michael, Plague, Oni, etc.

Very inconsistent logic by the BHVR balance team 😃

DEVS, DON'T GIVE IN TO PRESSURE

Trickster has always been a troubled killer. A killer that made many lobbies DC due to the Trickster failing to create a healthy level of interactive counter play, ruining the experience for survivor. He was essentially another Legion; one where chases aren't really that impactful and you're gonna get run down eventually, no matter how good you are. With the Trickster being able to apply that same logic to 2 health state has made him a well hated killer among the survivor community. So why did he fail where other killers didn't?

A perfect example of interactive counterplay is Huntress;
Let's look at a smaller loop. If the Huntress just walks through a pallet, she'll catch up to a survivor and hit them.
If a survivor drops the pallet, they can stun the huntress.
The huntress can in turn counter this by faking walking through a pallet and pulling up her hatchet ready to throw it over the pallet when it's thrown down
The survivor can counter this by faking throwing a pallet and keep running.
The huntress can counter this by faking pulling up the hatches and just running through like she did at the start.

This rock paper scissor gameplay is what creates interactive gameplay, and why huntress is one of the beloved killers of this community, and that is where older versions of Trickster failed.

But what would interactive gameplay looks like for Trickster? Because dodging a single hatches can feel impactful, but dodging a single knife just to be hit by the next and having zoned yourself surely isn't it.

Well, there are multiple things that can make playing against the trickster more impactful:
- The ability for the Trickster to run out of knives
- Having blade decay be a serious mechanic that survivors can realistically utilize
- Having distance from the killer due to them having a lower movement-speed

All of these things have the potential of turning the Trickster into an interactive gameplay killer. Now there's a problem. Have you noticed a lot of the feedback on this thread?
More knives, more base movement-speed, longer laceration decay timer…
The suggestions from the majority have been everything that would ruin interactive gameplay for the Trickster, and would turn the Trickster into yet another Run Down ranged legion…
But this monster has been our own creating. Because this Trickster-Legion has been the temporary solution for the Trickster rework; 8 blades to make chases last longer, but essentially guaranteed downs, and high blade counts. Sure it is "balanced". Having essentially guaranteed similar chase times and guaranteed downs are balanced but they aren't fun, nor interactive, yet it has trained many beginner players on their perception of what Trickster-Legion is;

Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf, which for many beginner players it is. Because the current, extremely well done rework (that is a net buff) has killed the un-interactive Run-Down Trickster hated by the survivor community. This means Trickster now is no longer a ranged legion, but a careful accuracy machine full of tricks, with deadly blades, trained on re-aiming corners and map knowledge as well as knowledge of survivor's pathing to efficiently take down survivors.

For the true trickster mains, it is the true prediction, around every corner, to predict whether, based on the distance, they will be able to hit a knife, and where that survivor will be located, so they can preferably pre-aim at that location. Consequently, for survivors, to fight this Trickster it is in their best interest to be unpredictable with their pathing to screw up the Trickster's pre-aim as many times as possible.

For the first time, we have interactive gameplay for a killer that used to have none. Not only that, but the Devs have been able to do so while making the rework a NET BUFF to the killer, one that is accessible for anyone that's willing to let go of the hated Run Down Trickster-Legion and usher in the area of the True and unique Trickster playstyle.

In the charts above, you can see the old learning curve, as well as the new learning curve, a net buff, in which the red zone exemplifies the "complaint zone", aka people who have yet to learn the Trickster as more than a Run-Down legion and will have to learn the real Trickster, and the green zone, the GOATED zone, for tricksters who are one with trickster and have decided to learn the killer properly, and are able to see why he is stronger.

My argument is, that even though the complaint zone looks big, from the previously brained legions dressed as Tricksters, many of these people and their complaints, would actually change, once they realize that the green zone exists. Even though the Devs might see negative feedback around the current Trickster, many of these players might change their minds upon realizing that if they properly learn this killer, they would be stronger than they could ever be with 4.6 44 Trickster-Legion.
I myself had to go through this experience as well. As someone who didn't play Trickster until the rework, my first experience was brutal too; getting pre-ran, running out of knives, seeing my laceration decay. The answers seemed simple… yet couldn't have been further from the truth.

All of the things I would've complained about weren't a flaw with the killer, but were simply attributable to being a skill-issue. Both seeing proper Trickster players perform so well has inspired me to try to actually learn this killer properly too, and even just over the course of a couple of days, I have been able to get my first dominating games. This of course requires one to truly want to be a Trickster, which requires you to also understand what it means to think like a Trickster; leaning pre-aims at corners, like shack, judging distance and estimating when you will get peeks. Learning flicks and understanding the delay time between when you press your blade and when it's trajectory is actually decided for flicks. The depth to this killer are not only insane, they are extremely fun! That is why I'm truly a fan of the "Trickster is a killer for the perfectionists"

It is also in this fun state, where the Trickster has interactive gameplay. Remember the Huntress story from earlier? Interactive gameplay with the current Trickster exists due to his lower maximum knife count, higher laceration, lower base movement speed, all things that adds to giving survivors more value for dodging and playing well, as well as being unpredictable with their pathing at Trickster's favourite pre-aiming spots

Due to the Trickster's design, dodging blades can only ever have some significance if the Trickster is forced to play at this higher skill ceiling. It is the only place where interactive gameplay can exist, unlike killers like huntress, where interactive gameplay can also exist at lower skill levels. It's therefore my belief that all killer powers, however they are designed, should be balanced around where their gameplay remains interactive. For some, that means that they are very accessible , for some killers, like Krasue where little interaction exists, should simply be nerfed, and where killer's interactivity is great, like Blight, his power can be celebrated by many. What that means for Trickster is that he can only ever be healthy for the game, if he is implemented as a high skill-cap killer, and that is something all of us Trickster players can celebrate, because this means that any of us can make him shine, if we're willing to put in the practice to learn what makes this killer unique.

That's why I hope that the Devs don't succumb to pressure and turn Trickster into yet another ranged Legion and embrace him for what makes him unique, as even I myself, in lesser knowledge would've advocated for the wrong things; more knives, more free base-kit movement-speed, slower laceration. Many of them simply don't know any better yet, myself from the past included. They are still in the Red Zone from the chart and simply don't know any better than to think the killer got nerfed in this patch, as being Legion brained can easily make you think. But once they take the time to learn this killer, for all that makes the Trickster unique; a perfectionist killer full of Tricks, they will have a true monster on their hands~

"Your first argument gives the survivors a free escape"
It is not demonstrably false. Good Trickster players like Wacek have shown they can consistently keep up their lacerations, even at the current rates. If anything, it has proven that people running out of knives or lose to decay suffer from nothing but skill issue. The people that think "there's nothing they can do but watch their laceration decay" simply lack the knowledge on how to prevent it, and when to fire. If top players would have failed, I would have agreed with you, but they aren't, and we have no excuse either other than needing to learn

""Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf" Because it is."
It isn't, and current emerging winstreaks are providing us with increasing proofs. It is definitely a skill ceiling shift, as demonstrated in this graph, because the killer no longer plays itself, like it does on 4.6, and has become more than just a ranged legion.

"Oh yea where are the "tricks" you keep talking about"
The current update has done a phenomenal job at adding tricks, by making long range shots, as well as short ranged shots through thin gaps valueable by making it increase your style points for your main event. Previous dumbed down versions of Trickster lacked all of this dept. You were simply meant to run down survivors with bad accuracy and they would fall eventually. This is no longer true. Now you can't play the Trickster as Ranged Legion anymore. You have to play the Trickster as the Trickster.
I've also detailed some of the "Tricks" in my own post, that also aim at advancing Trickster as a high skill cap ceiling killer and buffing him areas that don't negatively affect the depth of his chases: ⸻How I'd REWORK the Trickster (A Full Coherent Rework, Unmerged) — BHVR

"You would have to nerf this killer so far into the ground if you want to stop top trickster players like Wacek from converting survivors health states to past tense."
The killer in fact doesn't have to be nerfed. I've already seen survivors being able to put up a fight with Wacek, both through pathing, and dodging, all privileges that were able to happen as a result of him being 4.4 instead of 4.6 as base-speed
In fact, I do not believe Trickster does need to be nerfed in the current state. At a comp level he could even receive some buffs in other creative areas, but not in the areas that would dumb him down, such as max knife capacity, or base-movement speed

"I know that you mean well, and I agree that trickster should reward more skilled plays and learning the killers quirks and mechanics."
I in fact believe that in this main chase state is the only way for him to be healthy, which is especially why, in buffing Trickster, we do so in other creative aspects. Killer instinct for example has been absolutely great, and has allowed skilled Tricksters to close down games. That's what I believe is the level of creativity we need for this killer to turn him into a healthy success. In those areas he definitely deserves his buffs, but not in areas where we destroy his interactive gameplay for the survivor side, because that's what got us into the issue of reworking OG trickster originally in the first place, and what we need to avoid doing in the future

So far you've still completely ignored what healthy game-design is. Fact of the matter is that a basekit 115% Trickster is indeed an uninteractive killer, in which consistent chasetimes are guaranteed. This means that for the survivor, most of their gameplay is predominantly meaningless. That is indeed where this whole issue of reworking trickster began, and it is also uniquely why Trickster must indeed be a high skill killer to be healthy to the game.

He does however not need to be weak. He can be buffed in many other ways that don't dumb down his chases and reduce it to being a ranged Legion;
We can reduce boiler plate reload times by giving him 12 knives back whenever picking up a survivor, allowing him to sustain himself on knives for very long if played right, without losing the ability of running out of knives by letting max capacity untouched.
We can allow him to regress gens by throwing a knife at them to start the regression, so that he doesn't have go to kick and chase those scratch-marks as you suggested to catch up, but can instantly enter the chase, significantly improving his map pressure.
There are many such ways in which the Trickster can be buffed, where his chases remain a real and interesting game-mechanic, rather than a guaranteed run-down that has been unanimously hated among the survivor community (may I say the largest player-base in this game), so if we can turn Trickster into a strong killer, while also letting his chases remain a skillful display, where survivor counter input is significant, due to their ability to punish Tricksters that screw up in a meaningful manner, I'd say that is absolutely worth it. Because that is healthier for the game overall.

That means 4.4 base speed. 36 max capacity so he can run out realistically, proper laceration decay, and buffs in many other departments, both that make him more accessible to newer players without destroying the chase.

Because we can actually make this killer work without ruining him for 80% of our community (the survivor base). And that does mean a Trickster that can fail. A trickster where hitting knives is not an optional Side-quest. A trickster where survivor's gameplay is more significant. The Trickster we have right now.

What we need for him plain and simple is buffs that don't dumb down his chase, and there are many ways in which we can achieve that

LOS breaks aren't really relevant at 4.6, considering at that speed it isn't difficult to quite literally make it to the back of a survivor with ease, as is the point of melee killers. LOS blockers will therefore barely buy any time, as Trickster can continuously make their way to survivors like a melee killer can.

"it demands it at a baseline level that many players can’t realistically meet aside from the best. "
This is not true. A lot of beginner Tricksters or medium tricksters will indeed struggle, but mainly because they are facing Adept-veteran survivors. And guess what, if your Trickster is worse than someone Else's survivor, you deserve to lose. Beginner survivors or even some medium survivors have significantly more problem finding the proper loops/pallets, often run in open/dead zones where the trickster can easily mow down players, and aren't tightly hugging loops, like adept survivors.
The Tricksters who push this idea are those who do in fact that their mid Trickster should beat an Adept survivor, which is inherently unfair, but yes, a legion like Trickster would accomplish that, because the chases become mostly meaningless from the survivor's side.

The total perfection at which you'd have to play Trickster is also over stated. The only time you'd ever have to play at near perfection, is when the survivors are also playing TO perfection. So I don't really see why if survivors would have to play to perfection, you wouldn't have to hold that yourself to that same standard in order to win against them

Keep in mind people will often have thousands of hours completely trying to perfect survivors. As a Trickster, in it's current state, you wouldn't even need half of that to be able to dominate in similar lobbies

"And honestly, I think this is where our perspectives split."
I do agree, thought I wish you'd see that we can help these struggling Tricksters in different ways that are healthy to the game. Because Trickster will also feel significantly better to play if he is simply stronger overall. When he has more tools to prevent gens from flying, even as aspiring Trickster mains are still learning the killer. I also belong to the category of a "struggling" or learning Trickster, and personally have been able to get better results just practicing over the few days the Rework has been out and have already been able to see significant results, evidently playing against good survivors, who have a lot of tricks in the books, from mind games to pallet vacuum-like tricks to get stuns, while I'm evidently nowhere near the level of a Trickster than they are at the level of Survivor. And I do personally find it aspiring that this Killer has so much to offer for those that are willing to learn him properly. I would personally feel very sad if we buffed Trickster in the wrong way, that takes away from his high skill identity, as making him a killer that survivors rightfully despise, also, in my opinion, takes away some of the fun of playing him, especially knowing that (assuming the Legion-like Trickster) these aren't the type of chases they log on to this game for, and even wouldn't be playing if this was the predominant experience they would have with this game. I feel like that would take something away very important

Keep in mind both of us are in camp Buff Trickster, but just in different ways

I am not necessarily prioritizing high-skill identity perse, but I do prioritize bringing killers to a state where their power has dynamic play, meaning that both the killer's power feels meaningful, as well as the survivor's input against it.

For some killers that can mean the power is very accessible, like with Huntress, or even Blight's power is rather accessible. Yet my argument would be this; killers like nurse cannot be balanced for casual players. It must remain as a high skilled player for her gameplay to remain somewhat interactive. That's not because I want that; It's because it's the only option for her to be healthy. It is core to how she works as a killer, intrinsic due to her design.

My argument for the Trickster is the same as with the Nurse, for him to be a healthy killer, that CAN be fully enjoyed by all players playing him and facing against him, he must be a high skill cap killer, and there is no way around it, at least not without destroying the interactive side for survivors.
However, with the Trickster, we do have extra opportunities to make him more accessible; Not through the frequent go-to fixes proposed by the community that ruins interactivity, but by things that both buff the Trickster yet make Survivor counterplay more meaningful.

That's why for example, I'm a big advocate of giving Trickster 12 knives back when he picks up a survivor. This eliminated the amount of time he needs to go to lockers, depending on how well he has been playing.
You could make it so, that each time Trickster gets a 1% movement speed buff whenever injuring/downing a survivor, up to a max of 5%, but make him lose that movement speed upon reloading at a locker. That way, we attach any movement speed buffs the Trickster may receive to how long Trickster can last without running out of knives, which would be healthier for the game, because doing so would make any dodge a survivor does more significant, which is how I think trickster could be buffed while kept healthy.

And especially if you dislike following scratchmarks; one of the most common moments where you chase scratchmarks for a long time is where you need to kick a gen when someone runs away, just to then have to follow them while massively behind, and losing half a generator in the progress without interactions. All that boilerplate time could be eliminated if Trickster could start regression actions with his knife themselves, which would help beginner, medium and adept tricksters all while leaving the core chase gameplay in a healthier state.
Why wouldn't you be an advocate for that instead?

All I really ask is to look at Trickster in the same way we as a community have been correctly looking at other killers, and for Trickster that is similarly to Nurse. Yes she is harder to learn, but the learning will be worth it, and you will love it once you're a master of it. We cannot buff Nurse to make her as accessible to everyone unwilling to learn her without ruining the survivor experience and interactive counter play, and we should be glad that we haven't, because today, any honest person can feel happy to play as, as well as against the nurse in her current state. And the game is better for it overall as the result of that

Feedback on Add-ons

[Rare] Melodious Murder

The theme of this add-on, "focusing on knife replenishment via lockers," is unique, but the locker replenishment speed at high style ranks is already fast enough, and there are other excellent add-ons available, so there's almost no need to use this one.

• Improvements (Rework)
  Trickster can be granted the Haste status effect immediately after reloading his knives in the locker. The more knives he reloading at once, this Haste state becomes more longer duration.
  This effect should help to some extent mitigate the drawbacks of a 4.4 m/s.

[Rare] Waiting For You Watch

The theme of "it's meaningful even if the Trickster don't hit Lacerated survivors for a while" is good, but simply "Reveals the survivors' aura for 4 seconds when their Laceration reaches zero" is not very useful.

• Improvements (Buff)
  You can see a survivor's aura when their Laceration Meter is blinking (meaning it's about to decrease).

[Very Rare] Cut Thru U Single

Its current effect overlaps with that of an S-rank effects, making it not very useful, so further rework is needed. The current Trickster often finds herself unable to fight properly when carried blades remaining is running low (effectively the same as having zero blades). Compared to Huntress, in many cases she can fight without giving up until she uses up her last throwing weapon, Trickster pales in comparison. How about adding an effect that compensates for this drawback?

• Improvements (Rework)
  Plan A: When you have 1-5 number of carried blades remaining, each hit with a knife grants +100% more deal Laceration damage.
  Plan B: When you have 1-5 number of carried blades remaining, on hit with a thrown knife refills +3 carried blades.

[Very Rare] "Diamond Cufflinks"

The theme of "making it easier to deal damage to survivors with 5/6 Laceration without letting them escape" is good, but simply making their aura visible for 6 seconds isn't enough to justify equipping it over other excellent add-ons.

• Improvements (Buff)
  In addition to the existing effects, the following effect is added: "When chasing a survivor with 5/6 Lacerations, increases the range of your Lunge Attack." Furthermore, successfully executing this Lunge Attack will grant you a bonus to your style rank.
  This new effects will make it easier to deal damage to the survivors with 5/6 Lacerations, allowing for new and enjoyable fighting. Trickster is a killer where knife throwing and M1 often conflict, but this new effects will make knife throwing enhance M1 (making it easier to land hits), creating a new kind of fun.

[Visceral] Death Throes Compilation

Since opportunities to trigger the main event are not very frequent, being able to refill blades by 50% (18 blades) when the main event is triggered isn't very useful. Even if Trickster blades refilled +50%, in many cases he probably want to open locker soon after and refill blades to 100%.

• Improvements (Buff)
  At the end of the main event, your knives will be refilled by 67% (24 blades), and you will be granted the Haste status effect for a certain period of time.

4.4 or 4.6?

There's often disagreement on whether Trickster's movement speed should be 4.4m/s or 4.6m/s, but the fundamental problem is the dilemma: if the movement speed is slow, it becomes more difficult to fight in various situations and the M1 becomes weaker, but the importance of knife throwing increases. Conversely, if the movement speed is fast, it becomes easier to fight in various situations and the M1 becomes stronger, but the importance of knife throwing tends to diminish. I think it's important to solve that dilemma.
In my opinion, setting the base movement speed to 4.4 m/s (or 4.5 m/s) emphasizes the Trickster's unique knife-throwing ability, while addressing the drawbacks associated with slow movement by flexibly combining various approaches. Specifically, the following methods can be considered:

• Further mitigation of the movement speed penalty while knife throwing.
• Haste status can be obtained by triggering specific conditions (like the recent Trapper and Knight).
• Create some kind of synergy between knife throwing and M1 so that both attacks are sufficiently useful (see the "Diamond Cufflinks" rework proposal mentioned above).
• Movement speed increases according to style rank (or becomes 4.6 m/s only at S rank). If the "Cut Thru U Single" effect from PTB had been integrated into the base kit, I think it would have been quite close to the almost right.