We need to stop the war between Survivors mains and Killers mains

@thesuicidefox said:

@Orion said:
"Killer are in need of buffs for balance purposes more than Survivors are in need of solutions to their problems, therefore balance should take priority over Survivor issues".

This is like the DEFINITION of entitlement dude. "Because our side has more problems we need all the attention". Again, just completely dismissive of survivor issues to favor one side.

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?

@Orion said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@Orion said:
"Killer are in need of buffs for balance purposes more than Survivors are in need of solutions to their problems, therefore balance should take priority over Survivor issues".

This is like the DEFINITION of entitlement dude. "Because our side has more problems we need all the attention". Again, just completely dismissive of survivor issues to favor one side.

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?

This just points out the entitlement hypocrisy again of one side over the other. You can't fix one sides issues without also fixing the other sides issues. You have to address both issues at the same time so that as you make changes you know that it won't unbalance other changes.

Since otherwise it's just a big circle jerk of endless buffs then nerfs around and around for each side which is where we're at now. If they make changes to the killers at the same time as survivors they can make sure that one doesn't out balance the other and require more work down the line.

That last part is what the extremists on both sides don't seem to understand or care about and it just causes more problems in the end.

I will do my part.  Starting after the August reset I will main killer and get him to rank 1 (even if it takes a coupke of months)  Can't do it till then as my schedule isn't allowing for enough gameplay time until then. 

anyone else willing to join me in maining side which you normally avoid?

@Russ76 said:
I will do my part.  Starting after the August reset I will main killer and get him to rank 1 (even if it takes a coupke of months)  Can't do it till then as my schedule isn't allowing for enough gameplay time until then. 

anyone else willing to join me in maining side which you normally avoid?

I may try to get rank 1 killer again since I throwed the towel last time when I was near rank 5, but back then literal infinite like the infamous cow tree where still a thing.

@powerbats said:

@Orion said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@Orion said:
"Killer are in need of buffs for balance purposes more than Survivors are in need of solutions to their problems, therefore balance should take priority over Survivor issues".

This is like the DEFINITION of entitlement dude. "Because our side has more problems we need all the attention". Again, just completely dismissive of survivor issues to favor one side.

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?

This just points out the entitlement hypocrisy again of one side over the other. You can't fix one sides issues without also fixing the other sides issues. You have to address both issues at the same time so that as you make changes you know that it won't unbalance other changes.

Since otherwise it's just a big circle jerk of endless buffs then nerfs around and around for each side which is where we're at now. If they make changes to the killers at the same time as survivors they can make sure that one doesn't out balance the other and require more work down the line.

That last part is what the extremists on both sides don't seem to understand or care about and it just causes more problems in the end.

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?
This is a "yes/no" question. I failed to see either of those words in your answer. Once you answer it, you can then explain your reasoning. Here, I'll go first.
It's not unreasonable to fix the bigger problem first. Fixing Survivor problems might help Survivors in the short term, but in the long term, it's better if you start by putting Killers where they should be, so that the Survivor fixes don't make the game unbalanced to the point Killers put together another strike.

@powerbats said:

@Orion said:

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?
This is a "yes/no" question. I failed to see either of those words in your answer. Once you answer it, you can then explain your reasoning. Here, I'll go first.
It's not unreasonable to fix the bigger problem first. Fixing Survivor problems might help Survivors in the short term, but in the long term, it's better if you start by putting Killers where they should be, so that the Survivor fixes don't make the game unbalanced to the point Killers put together another strike.

Yet what's the actual big problem here, buffing killers or fixing the underlying issues that cause that? So you buff killers 1st well then now the shoes on other foot so they either nerf killers again or buff survivors and then were back to square 1 again.

This is why they need to address it all at the same time instead of piecemeal attempts which just end up making them redo stuff later. If they make changes to say aura reading abilities at the same time they know the balance is there when they go to release it. But if they do only killers then they have to either nerf it back again or buff survivors.

This is why they decided to change tinkerer completely because trying to adjust things for one group meant they couldn't get it right for the others. By doing the change all at once they cna now buff all the killers individually for how cdr stuff works.

The same is true for fixing killers, if you don't fix the underlying issues and instead only buff them it fixes nothing.

Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering the question?

@Orion said:

@powerbats said:

@Orion said:

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?
This is a "yes/no" question. I failed to see either of those words in your answer. Once you answer it, you can then explain your reasoning. Here, I'll go first.
It's not unreasonable to fix the bigger problem first. Fixing Survivor problems might help Survivors in the short term, but in the long term, it's better if you start by putting Killers where they should be, so that the Survivor fixes don't make the game unbalanced to the point Killers put together another strike.

Yet what's the actual big problem here, buffing killers or fixing the underlying issues that cause that? So you buff killers 1st well then now the shoes on other foot so they either nerf killers again or buff survivors and then were back to square 1 again.

This is why they need to address it all at the same time instead of piecemeal attempts which just end up making them redo stuff later. If they make changes to say aura reading abilities at the same time they know the balance is there when they go to release it. But if they do only killers then they have to either nerf it back again or buff survivors.

This is why they decided to change tinkerer completely because trying to adjust things for one group meant they couldn't get it right for the others. By doing the change all at once they cna now buff all the killers individually for how cdr stuff works.

The same is true for fixing killers, if you don't fix the underlying issues and instead only buff them it fixes nothing.

Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering the question?

I'm not trying hard to avoid the question and in fact answered it, you just don't like my reasoning in my response. You claim the big problem is on your side but that doesn't make it so. I'm saying the big problem is the overall underlying issues that have put killer in such a bad place.

@BOSS242 said:
What? If I understand you, you're saying it can be done but it's not easy so you need to make it easier? Maybe you just need to find the challenge level that fits you best. What every rank/killer combo that is for you. 

Any Killer can get kills if Survivors make big mistakes multiple times in a row. Doesn't mean the game is balanced.

@powerbats said:

@Orion said:

Answer the question. Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?
This is a "yes/no" question. I failed to see either of those words in your answer. Once you answer it, you can then explain your reasoning. Here, I'll go first.
It's not unreasonable to fix the bigger problem first. Fixing Survivor problems might help Survivors in the short term, but in the long term, it's better if you start by putting Killers where they should be, so that the Survivor fixes don't make the game unbalanced to the point Killers put together another strike.

Yet what's the actual big problem here, buffing killers or fixing the underlying issues that cause that? So you buff killers 1st well then now the shoes on other foot so they either nerf killers again or buff survivors and then were back to square 1 again.

This is why they need to address it all at the same time instead of piecemeal attempts which just end up making them redo stuff later. If they make changes to say aura reading abilities at the same time they know the balance is there when they go to release it. But if they do only killers then they have to either nerf it back again or buff survivors.

This is why they decided to change tinkerer completely because trying to adjust things for one group meant they couldn't get it right for the others. By doing the change all at once they cna now buff all the killers individually for how cdr stuff works.

The same is true for fixing killers, if you don't fix the underlying issues and instead only buff them it fixes nothing.

I don´t agree. Killers have been nerved harder than survivors in the past 2 years. Most killer meta perks have been nerfed so hard, that everyone stopped using them, because they would handicap themself more by using them. Survivor perks on the other hand have been nerfbuffed. For every minor nerf, they have been hugely buffed on the other side. SC doesn´t give as much of a heal bonus to medkits? Let´s give rank 1 and 2 the 50% base heal speed!

In order to balance this game, the devs need to nerf/buff one side. Then see how that works out, before they do it another time. If they change to many things on both sides at the same time, they risk that they get inconclusive data. Because the whole thing might cause a chain reaction.

That was the whole point of the PTB. To see if the planned changes are to much or not enough. But survivors felt to entitled to play on the PTB. Because they wouldn´t gain anything from it (perks not being nerfed so hard is obviously not worth fighting for). That was a missed chance, and everyone who complains about the changes after they go live, should just shut up. Because they had their chance and didn´t use it.

thesuicidefox said:

@Orion said:
Until Survivors stop being entitled, constantly complaining about things that they find annoying instead of things that make the game imbalanced, you can kiss your wish goodbye.

Anytime someone says anything about improving something for survivors, killers get all REEEEE and say stuff like "YOU ARE ENTITLED". That is literally the argument every killer main resorts to if they can't provide substantial counter points. Fact is, survivor has some stuff that sucks too. Do killers need to be stronger? Yes, but that doesn't mean survivors don't need a better experience too.

I play both sides I want the best game there is. I want less BS for killers AND survivors, yet anytime I make a point about BS survivors have to deal with all I get is "YOU ARE BEING ENTITLED" which is not only wrong but just a pathetic attempt to derail actual conversation. Killers are being entitled thinking they are the only ones that deserve any sort of change for the better, and the only things survivors should get are nerfs and punishments. THAT is entitlement, to think only you and your side matter or deserve things the other side doesn't.

Well f*****g said!

@Orion said:

@Tsukirose31 said:

@Orion said:
Until Survivors stop being entitled, constantly complaining about things that they find annoying instead of things that make the game imbalanced, you can kiss your wish goodbye.

As a survivor main I would like to apologize for that. Even I admit there are a lot of survivors out there that feel entitled. But also I've gone up against killers that feel entitled as well. I think it's a both sides of the fence sort of thing.

Survivors feel they are entitled to survive.
Killers feel they are entitled to kill.
Vicious cycle.

Good luck out in the game

Killers feel they are entitled to the power role promised to them in this asymmetrical game.
Survivors feel they are entitled to the power role promised to the other side in this asymmetrical game.

The two sides are not equal.

Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Some, not all killers, but some from what I've seen and read feel that they should be in complete control of the game and the survivors should stand absolutely no chance of survival at all.

I've been up against many killers who just played a bad game then messaged me after blaming me for their bad game play saying I should have died. This is not a one sided problem. Their on people on both sides who see this as only one sided when it is not. There is a way to balance the game without ruining it for either side. I agree that killers need a buff and I say that know I'm a survivor main. But basing those fixes on things such as SWF and trolls on both sides is not the way to go for this.

Like I said, I agree killers need a buff. However there are ways to do it without completely smothering the survivors and making it so that survivors just don't want to play the game. Same way for killers. Killers lobby waiting rooms are already kinda lengthy at times which means as it is, there's not always enough survivors playing the game as is at the time. I just don't want things to get too out of hand on both sides where it doesn't drive the player base away.

Just my opinion

Orion said:

@BOSS242 said:
What? If I understand you, you're saying it can be done but it's not easy so you need to make it easier? Maybe you just need to find the challenge level that fits you best. What every rank/killer combo that is for you. 

Any Killer can get kills if Survivors make big mistakes multiple times in a row. Doesn't mean the game is balanced.

Alright, I get ya. So you would like for the killer to have to make a mistake for the survivors have chance to win instead of the other way round? Makes sense. But I also think things are getting better at least for straight up players.

I almost feel it's like its the gun control issue here in the US. hahahaha I know hear me out. like some people argue, they keep taken power away from survivors which seems hurt  New players and non toxic players more than the toxic survs you want to take the power from. Need to keep boosting killer for chase but stop and even go back on some of the aura reading stuff so survivors can hide otherwise we're just going to go unbalanced again but for the survivors again this time

@fcc2014 said:

@Orion said:

No, not exactly.
I want Survivors to have to be smarter/better than the Killer in order to escape, instead of just having to exploit map design and broken mechanics while their team does generators.
I want Survivors to be pressured to make as few mistakes as possible, instead of having more safety nets than Chinese factories.
Long story short, I want Survivors to have to play well in order to win. They're supposed to be the weaker role, their mistakes should be more punishing.

The only problem is the learning curve. They have to balance it for the whole community. people with 100's to 1000's of hours would adjust. New people just starting get slaughtered over and over. They move on. Highly skilled and experienced killers have been deranking and sit in 12-18 range. I've seen 6 different users with the Platinum trophy(every achievement in the game killer and survivor)That is a major problem they also need to deal with.

Ideally, you could add more modifiers to the queue system that would not be bypassed no matter how much time had passed. For example, play time, highest rank achieved, and so on.

@fcc2014 said:

@Orion said:

Ideally, you could add more modifiers to the queue system that would not be bypassed no matter how much time had passed. For example, play time, highest rank achieved, and so on.

That is actually a really good idea on the conditions that BHVR can pull it off and it doesn't make que times outrageous. I could see issues on pc though people hacking just to continue to troll.

Queue times would naturally increase for high-ranking people, but that's something everyone would have to deal with to ensure balanced matches. You can't simultaneously have balanced matches and fast queues unless you have literally millions of players, or if the players you do have are equally distributed between every metric you might want to consider.

Orion said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@AsePlayer said:

@Orion said:
The fact that you believe camping and "tunneling" are balance issues says all I need to know about your understanding of the game.

The fact that you responded this way says all I need to know about your comprehension of the post

Yep. It's dismissive. "Killers need buffs therefore there is absolutely no problems playing survivor." No, both sides need a fix.

Wrong. The argument is "Killer are in need of buffs for balance purposes more than Survivors are in need of solutions to their problems, therefore balance should take priority over Survivor issues". Do you think it's unreasonable to focus on the big problem instead of solving small issues that would further tilt the game in the Survivors' favor?

If you spend too much time and energy on only the big issue this game will die. Your idea of a small issue may be a huge problem for others so to say "until I'm happy none of your issue can be fixed" is about as entitled as you can get! 

Do you really think survivors are going to stick around and keep playing if all you do is constantly make things harder for them?? But who cares right? "As long as the game plays how I want it to!" Open your mind a bit to the idea other people want to have fun playing too!!!

fcc2014 said:

@Orion said:

No, not exactly.
I want Survivors to have to be smarter/better than the Killer in order to escape, instead of just having to exploit map design and broken mechanics while their team does generators.
I want Survivors to be pressured to make as few mistakes as possible, instead of having more safety nets than Chinese factories.
Long story short, I want Survivors to have to play well in order to win. They're supposed to be the weaker role, their mistakes should be more punishing.

The only problem is the learning curve. They have to balance it for the whole community. people with 100's to 1000's of hours would adjust. New people just starting get slaughtered over and over. They move on. Highly skilled and experienced killers have been deranking and sit in 12-18 range. I've seen 6 different users with the Platinum trophy(every achievement in the game killer and survivor)That is a major problem they also need to deal with.

That's why they introduce noob ranks with the next patch.

Orion said:

@BOSS242 said:
If you spend too much time and energy on only the big issue this game will die. Your idea of a small issue may be a huge problem for others so to say "until I'm happy none of your issue can be fixed" is about as entitled as you can get! 
Do you really think survivors are going to stick around and keep playing if all you do is constantly make things harder for them?? But who cares right? "As long as the game plays how I want it to!" Open your mind a bit to the idea other people want to have fun playing too!!!

You're still not getting my point. I'll give it one last try.

• When you fix issues plaguing one side, you indirectly buff that side. It's unavoidable.
• The game is in the Survivors' favor right now. That's a fact that most people acknowledge.
• Survivor fixes are usually small changes. This stems from the fact that Survivor gameplay is fairly basic compared to Killer gameplay. There are few interactions that can cause problems.
• To balance the game, new mechanics will have to be introduced, which will then need to be tweaked. This takes time.
• To fix every problem plaguing Survivors would tilt the balance of the game further in the Survivors' favor. Given what happened last year, when players (yes, players; they weren't just Killer mains, despite the propaganda) organized a strike in protest of the game's unbalanced state, this could result in a similar (or worse) event.
• If Survivor mains could bite the bullet for once, instead of expecting Killer mains to do it, and wait until the game approaches something resembling a balanced state, their fixes would have less of an impact on the balance of the game. At worst, it would go from "fairly balanced" to "slightly unbalanced", as opposed to going from "very unbalanced" to "unplayable".
• If the devs start fixing Survivor problems after the game is balanced, the balance changes required will be relatively small adjustments to their new mechanics that can be released in quick succession.
• If the devs were to fix every Survivor problem now, given that it'd just add to the unbalanced state of the game, it'd take longer to achieve a balanced state. New mechanics take time to create and adjust to. Even if they only fix some of the problems at the same time as they balance the game by introducing new mechanics, they won't have reliable data on either change. This means they'll have to push back one of the two, and if history tells us anything, they'll push back whatever benefits Killers.

I understand what you're saying. They need to keep working on the balance and killers need help in the chase and end game. It is the most important element to getting this game on track. 

All I'm saying is just because something may give the survivors a usable effect or ability you shouldn't start with a super solid NO. As you take power away from survivor (as they should) you need to give them something else to use and give killers the right kind of power. Take away my ability to run away from killer, than give me something to hide better. Instead they give dumb ######### like bitter murmurs that shows you where survivors are every time they complete their one and only objective?? How's that help killer close chase?? That's just taking away the ability to hide. I play killer a lot and I have no trouble finding people I just dont like running in circles all that much!! This game is amazing when both sides play correctly and I dont like seeing anything that hurts how clean player can play the game.

I just feel they can give and take away power from players but when you take power from one play style you need to at the very least leave the other styles alone. 

The biggest issue and the one that will not only take the most time to fix but also would solve a lot of the killer imbalance would be map redesign. This would take a huge amount of time to redo all the maps and not just the problem parts of certain maps. Ahem cough Barn cough being a prime example.

To make this better you'd have to give survivors more places to hide and better ways to lose the killer besides the pallets and endless looping. The survivors have to do this because it's the only thing they can do to get away, The killers then get frustrated and resort to camping,tunneling etc. You could change perks all you want but that won't address the core issues of the map causing the problems.

IF you fix the map design to be more of a hide and seek type then you can balance around that and killers would be in more of a power role.

@fcc2014 I just had to do this because it's so true in a sarcastic sort of way. Although some of it is balance but the swf excuse is apt here.

When the killers is so bad you can live on the hooks and they still blame swf.