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What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?
Comments
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And I'm arguing from a sustainability point of view. If you run against a 4 man swf, who know what they're doing, on most maps 3 gens will pop in the first 90 seconds. Ruin addressed this, now it lies gutted. CI will next be used to address it, and it too, will be gutted, as has every killer meta that arrived before it.
By the time you hook your first person, you're looking at 3 gens done if you played 100% optimally with zero mistakes and they made at least 2 mistakes. IF they have deadhard, and have a good chain of safe pallets, that's it boio, that's the game. Switching targets mid chase just wastes the 90+ seconds you've spent, in which 60% of the opposing sides objectives are done. This is an abysmal trade off considering that you, the killer, are the one supposedly setting the match pace by the assymetrical philosophy.
Let's say you catch that person without a dead hard, if they're in a SWF, they're likely to get saved by a second chance perk, putting the unhooked, and the rescuer on equal ground, meaning that you now have to waste at the minimum another 20 seconds. If you play as intended, you ignore the unhooked person and chase the rescuer, freeing them up to heal, and setting you up for another 90 second chase, at which point 2 gens are still being worked on and likely pop, so you end your game with at most 2 hooks, less than 25% of your objective. "But those SWF's are rare" I hear you say, which is exactly why they should be the ideal target of balance.
Time and again with major balance changes like this, this exact argument comes up, and gets ignored, giving rise to the first step of the cycle with the next perk. Perhaps instead of just nerfing perks and constantly releasing bandaid fixes, the dev team should really take the time to look at and understand why 60% of the objective gets done in 90 seconds and what they can do at the baseline level to fix that.
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Tbh I give the Ruin+Surveillance combo a week or two before people realize there's just not a point to running it, at which point people will bounce from slow build to slow build trying to find something that works, when little does.
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I honestly dont see it that way. Perks are meant for you to mix them and compliment them into a build.
Spirit Fury and Enduring are eh perks on their own. But they work best together do they not? So what reason would you have to run them alone?
I will agree the core functionality is a bit flawed. The devs should allow Pop to be used on it since it can be used on already regressing gens without it anyway
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You're using 2 perks for the price of an old one. That's objectively worse as a build.
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I'll correct you. Old ruin (when still up) was carried a lot boosted killers. Ruin was the killer not the actual killer. Now we''ll see who's boosted and who's not.
Ruin changed because all the killers running: Ruin, Pop, Thana, Dying Light. Survivors know killer's build before the game started. Killers are funny and predictable af. Stop complaining and play the game or find another.
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I didn't like the old Ruin due to the random nature of the skill checks and totem spawns. But the new Ruin has his problems aswell. I love the idea but it is not worth as a Hex perk, especially with some totem spawns on old maps. However killers need now a new early game slow perk. Thats something that is int he current state of the game NEEDED alot. If gentimes and maps will get fixed than a early pressure game perk like old Ruin would still have its purpose on Killers like Trapper, Hag, Myers etc.
Sum up:
New Ruin is a cool idea! But we need a new early game pressure perk for Killers OR a change to reduce the gen speed at the START of the game. Late game is not that big of a problem, the BIGGEST problem for Killers is the early game. Pls devs do something about that.
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That 90 seconds that your saying now though factors in both travel time as well as actually FINDING someone. The chase portion of that is only a part of the 90 seconds, so all rant you did about all the 2nd chance perks and Dead hard giving the survivor an additional 90 seconds...is pretty exaggerated. Im not disagreeing that the early gens can pop fast and time is very limited. Im disagreeing with you as to the WHY. Its no coincidence that the killers with good mobility rank so high on tier lists. Canable and Billy have very similar powers as far as the chase goes, but Billy ranks much higher for the fact that he can zoom across the map inbetween chases.
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While I get what your saying, it does seem odd that no one uses this same logic when talking about Spirit Fury. Spirit Fury without enduring is pretty useless.
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Why do you think there's such little diversity in killers at red ranks? BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE 100% EFFICIENT. This includes chases, where even if you play perfectly, you can still be punished and forced to rewin the same game, I'll not repeat myself yet again, simply just going to point you towards the door and notice how widely unpopular this change is, and that the results will 100% be predictable along with quite a large chunk of players up and quitting because it's just simply too much work and stress to 100% have to outperform 4 people who get second chances while you get none
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Im not claiming the ruin change is good, im simply stating the reasons for it being BAD that people are saying. By the time a slower killer crosses the map to find a survivor, you could have a gen already done. New ruin only has an effect if a survivor leave the gen, which if they see ruin is in play, theyre less likely to do so.
Currently, you see people getting ready for an unhook as soon as a survivor goes down or shortly after theyve been hooked. New ruin would just make it more likely that same person utilizes the 60 seconds the hooked survivor has before the next hook phase to get a gen done so its not regressing after they leave it.
Notice how none of this has anything to do with chase times... This is why people are saying the killers who didnt need ruin to begin with...Like Billy, are the ones who strangely enough will be able to actually find use in new ruin. They're more likely to be able to cross the map to chase someone off a gen before it gets done.
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As one of the players that started the whole nerf hex ruin movement
But is considering boycotting because what you've done is so terrible, I will repeat
The solution is to make ruin be how it has always been but to auto DETONATE after 5 minutes.
So that, on maps where it can't be found, the survivors still have a chance.
We all know you cater to killers and that's ok but the biggest detriment to this game is toxic killers.
Your rework of Decisive Strike gave them PERMISSION to camp hooks and tunnel unhooked survivors.
Personally, I feel killers should lose 100,000 BP if they hook someone within a minute of them being unhooked.
You need to stop catering to killers who want the game easy.
Remember, even MASTER KILLERS should have a 2 kill per game average.
Every killer should have a 2 kill average and every survivor should have 50/50 escape/die averages.
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Making survivors spawn more towards the edges of the map would also help
I often spawn like 10 feet away from a gen
If survivers had to walk atleast 10 seconds before they found a gen you wouldn't have the gen pops before the killer can over there problem
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Another consideration is to not have OP killers be allowed to use it.
Michael, Freddy.
Who do you all listen to?
Im a killer main. The old Freddy was so OP that I felt guilty playing him. He was undeniably the most OP killer in the game. There was never a time when he could not see the survivors no matter where they were on the map.They had white auras that turn red whether they crouched down hiding in front of you or were across the map. You could always see them. There was no chance for survivor escape. I got 4/4 every time before a gen was done.
All you had to do to make Freddy fair was remove the red auras and I said that over and over again but instead you made him stronger which is hilarious because people hated him because he was TOO STRONG.
TRASH KILLER DOESNT MEAN WEAK.
IT MEANS EASY.
But toxic killers are the biggest problem. As a killer main who gets thank you messages from people I've killed, I know what it is to play fair.
Never pursue a hooked survivor till they're healed. Never hook someone twice till everyone's hooked once. Never kill till everyone is hooked twice.
If I can get 4/4 playing this way, so can everyone else.
I don't expect people to play like me. But I do expect consequences for cowards who use exploits and shady tactics like camping and tunneling.
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This whole patch is bad, probably the worst I've seen since I started playing. I don't expect unhook behavior to change, as it'll be a week or so before people realize that R+Surv isn't worth the slot combo, even on high mobility killers. I'm just tired of people like OP handwaiving criticism and excusing brain dead design choices that only result in direct harm to the player base. Like I said before, we're back to step one of the cycle before they gut the next killer meta then wonder why they get ######### talked so much by that part of the community.
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For the record, as a killer main
I opposed the decisive strike nerf.
It was ONE TIME PER GAME and half the time they fail the skill check. Plus I run Remember Me so I loved getting an extra hit on the obsession. 9/10 times you just chase them and down them ten seconds later.
I also never minded mettle of a man. Yes I had people escape because of it, just like DS. I never minded. I also never minded insta heal. And as a killer main I recognize that self heal is too agonizingly slow.
When playing a new killer, it should take a couple weeks to get a 4/4.
Everyone wants it easy.
I played an excellent match once as a survivor that I consider to be the perfect match. It was against the Nurse. She chased me several times. At least 3 or 4 times I got away completely and went about my business.
In the end, she DID kill me
But she had to work for it.
THAT is how it should be.
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"Im a killer main. The old Freddy was so OP that I felt guilty playing him."
This thread has peaked
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I also think its important to try to be realistic when what you post. In your post earlier talking about second chances, you mightve had some valid points in there...that kinda got buried once you brought up things like 14 pallet saves. You lose credibility in your argument when you say stuff like that, even if you have valid points in there. I noticed that even some of numbers didnt make any sense. BT for example can proc on ANY unhook, but you for some reason only put it down as 4 uses rather than up to 8. You cant use "Math" as your argument when you yourself are using wrong numbers.
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If I had the power. The first thing I would do is
The entity hates weakness and has no tolerance for lazy killers, so the entity protects unhooked survivors for 30 seconds after removal by filling them with an energy that makes them invincible.
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I went with 4 instead of 8 because it's a minimum. You can choose to handwaive the argument like OP did, but the point will remain as it has for years now. You just can't keep nerfing killers while giving survivors more second chances, it just doesn't work. IF you play as behaviour intends, 20 downs is incredibly significant and more than enough to completely rob a killer of his victory that he earned to begin with. Especially if you play as they keep intending you to. At this point they'd be better of relegating the entire Killer role to an AI.
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Simply, for me, the changes I'd make is calling it something different and adding it as a new perk.
It is so fundamentally different from Hex: Ruin that it rightly should be its own perk.
Secondarily, since this is such a big nerf, I'd say to make it a permanent rather than a Hex.
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You could do anything, it feels like BHVR is trying to bring the killers with in built gen defense with faster movement on the map eg DemiGordon, Freddie, Oni*.
Ruin was a huge plaster fix that depended on luck due to gens being done even before the killer found the gen survivors had been working on.
Totems to show down gens are pointless cleaning unless lit, NoED you can forget about doing them and look for a single lit one at the end
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I honestly believe if they just made ruin give a gen speed reduction based on how many people work on the gen at the same time .One player, no reduction, two players, 10% reduction, three, 20%, etc. Also remove the Hex part or fix totem spawns. To counter this new ruin. Bring prove thyself. One player on said gen with Prove Thyself negates the ruin. Two players with the perk negates the perk and then adds the 10% for each survivor. This will slow the game down as multiple people won't be rushing one gen, spreading the survivors and making the trial slower as Monto has wisely said, just a little bit.
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I would be ok with current Hex: Ruin rework if:
1) totems are hidden and not spawning literaly next to survivors
2) increase durability of totems e.g. longer cleansing time, protection against cleansing for first 2 minutes (something like Corrupt intervention for totems) or make all totems burning so survivors dont know which one totem is enchanted a must cleanse more totems
3) rework gen speed and toolboxes to prevent necessity of using old Hex: Ruin
4) after destroying related hex totem let killer "enchant" another one dull totem to regain perk effect so killers will not be forced to play with 3 perks for the rest of the game after destroying Hex.
5) implement "Thrill of the hunt" to basekit of every killer so killer has chance to even protect it without wasting another perk slot
There are so many solutions just BHVR is too lazy to implement it and balance game one time for both sides and not only for "frustrated" survivors. Everything they do is only for pampering them. Biggest problem is need of old Ruin coz crazy gen speeds and durability of hex totems which are 1-2 minutes. Late game hex is really stupid idea!
JUST DO SOMETHING FOR KILLERS AS WELL AND NOT ONLY FOR NEWBIE SURVIVORS!!!
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Lol! you think ds is used to make the killer whiff, how naive of you...
DS is used to fix a looping mistake and stop the killer being able to hit you, or to get to unreachable loops from their previous spot.
It is a second chance because it literally erases mistakes that should go punished, Do i need to bring up what this perk does to nurse?
Every survivor becomes 3 hits to down, that is 3 random guesses you must make after a survivor finds cover, 3 chances for a survivor to waste a very large amount of the nurses time just because of a perk, it essentially makes her unplayable.
Don't go telling me that nurse players just need to be more precise either, cover hits are literally a game of eenie meenie miney mo did they go left, did they go right or straight? i don't know.
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Not naive, just tired of all the "perfect situations" people build when looking at nerfing/buffing something.
e.g
"What if this happens, or this happens, or this happens".
There is no reason you can't bait out dead hard, there is no reason for you to not remember which survivors have used it and wait out the dead hard.
It is not an uncounterable perk by any means, I have 4300 hours in this game, I'm very well aware of what dead hard can and can't do and whether it is beatable, and it definitely is.
Post edited by Seanzu on1 -
Did...did you just call old Freddy OP, and call Michael OP?
And that's so cute. Congratulations on being a super cute, friendly killer. Surely, you're the one people ought to go to balance for. "Shady tactics like camping and tunneling" Lmao.
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I think by now people have seen the video how fast gens do go even with the current version of ruin.
I would be ok with the changes to hex ruin, if the devs actually thought just for a little bit about what that would do to players that do play killer. There was simply nothing in the words that they even took that into account. Where are the reworks for maps that need it so urgently? If not why not adjust gen speeds or another objective to survivors (you know something that isnt utterly boring)?
Right now you can finish games within 5minutes with the current ruin and they are like yeah we need to increase the pace of the game! How is anybody enjoying that? Honestly i want to have interaction with the killer.
Also I am quite shocked about the fact that they do literally raise this us vs them mentality that I so despise. You know it is not about new players as a whole but new survivor players.
Oh and it would be great if they honestly do adress core issues that new players do have, you know the stuff that we can deal with or simply ignore like all the bugs, camping/tunneling killers, dlcs/paymentwalls, poor optimization and the grind. Because those are the issues that new players actually have with the game (check steam/metacritic).
Also it would be great if they actually do finish their work, like you know the nurse rework? I mean you have plenty of people here that do parrot stuff like still best killer in the game.... yeah except she isn't and it has nothing to do with skill but because the killer is so bugged atm. Get sucked into the basement with a blink when you do that anywhere close to it, enjoy playin on sanctum of wrath where you literally have no power at all.
Myers? Can't stalk but hey nobody gives a #########. Here a couple of cosmetics so shut up will ya?
Fix anything that people paid for in order to enjoy? Nah the real problem is new survivors can not hit great skillchecks.
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The devs wanted 50% of survivors to be able to leave the trial without much difficulty and the changes do deliver that.
That makes the game boring as a survivor player, hard for killers with high mobility and unforgiving for killers with low mobility.
If all survivors knew how to use spine chill, they would survive much more easily...
For me the ruin rework would be more acceptable if...
1) Wounded survivors receive a heavy debuff on the speed on all actions, including running and vaulting. Common, they just got a knife on their back, no one would be able to do anything physical or mental with the same speed of an uninjured survivor. That would make healing mandatory and would end chases more quickly.
2) Give low mobility killers more speed, like leatherface. That would make survivors fly away from a gen just at the sight of the killer.
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DS mustve gotten some interesting new powers if it can do all that. I just remember it stunning the killer if they pick up a survivor 60 seconds after unhooking. Your saying it can be used mid-chase too?
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Just make it not a hex and it'll actually be useful as a "late game slowdown perk". We all know totems do not last into the late game and I really think it's ridiculous they'd use that as an excuse. So either remove the Hexedness (?) or just fix totem spawns to begin with, which is something that everyone has been asking for
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They meant DH 😉.
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I think now that most people have gotten their hands on it they've come round on it.(Me included, I ain't proud, but we live n learn).
Though it looks like you kinda gotta bundle it with Surveillance, for best effect which makes build a little less flexible, but eh, is a small gripe.
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Hold up.. I see a lot of Ideas being thrown out there... but why not just literally keep it simple and to the point!
Keep RUIN a HEX : Just make it Reduce Gen Repair Speeds by like 30-50% while it is up. That's it. It will give us the early game pressure that we are looking for, it will not affect skill checks the way it did for "new players" before that created the problem, and it will still do a good job at slowing down gen speeds for like the first 2-3min of the game while the Hex is up..!
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that no one had thought of this yet, it's such a simple solution!
Literally can be, 30% Reduced speed lv1, 40% lv2, 50% lv3. Obviously it IS going to be found, probably within the first 5min of the match, so it's not like gen speeds will be reduced all game long. But it will help prevent early game gen rush, and it still allows survivors to work on gens without worrying about "missing great skill checks". Which means they are allowed to have progress, just slower than normal.
Also it would give at least some level of synergy with Thanataphobia making that a more useful Perk than it is now, with the ability of potentially slowing gen speeds by 66% with 4 stacks while Ruin is up.. and forcing survivors to actually LOOK for Ruin rather than sit their gen rushing..
Man, I swear this is the best idea yet, and I didn't even mean to come up with it, I was just reading all the other more complicated ideas and was like, jesus all Ruin was is an attempt to slow early game gen pressure down so why not just keep it as simple as possible and do exactly what we want it to without overly complicated additions..?
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All I ask is you stop this.
First game today, and the first three survivor's ran for safe loops, forcing me to play like a bot running in a circle to force them to drop the pallet. Ruin and 2 gens go up in the first 20 seconds of the match before I can even find the first survivor. Even though they obviously were clearly winning, tea bagging, and being a nuisance bullying the killer they verbally assault the killer at the end of the game to rub salt in the wound.
Why is this at all okay, and why is it being ignored? I don't even want an answer. I want it fixed.
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I am not sure how to fix ruin but I see some good suggestions on here.
I do have concerns with the current change.
It makes you not want to leave a gen after doing a set amount. With after say 40% would you go for a save and let it regress? Close saves possibly but then it would be back to the gen. That is of course also more dangerous as the killer could come back. I think gens will start to pop a lot more so before a save is made than now.
It also removes the want to heal someone after an unhook if progress on a gen has been made as each second is letting it remove the work you have done.
I also feel it doesn't help new players as they are extremely timid and leave a gen and hide at the hint of a heartbeat. This will make it harder for them than the old one.
New players I feel will still want to find the totem while those with enough knowledge of thebgame will sit on it until complete if the killer doesn't come near.
I feel it promotes doing gens faster as staying on it is more beneficial imo compounding a problem.
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So within 20 seconds of the match starting, 1 survivor cleansed your totem while the other 3 finished 2 gens? You clearly need to report someone for hacking, cuz those numbers sound impossible without some BNPs and supped up toolboxes in play.
In all seriousness though, Freddy is great at countering braindead loops. Even if they ran you to some of the most broken looping spots, like Wretched shop or ironworks... afew snares would screw those spots over. Linking a screenshot of the scorecard after you DCed doesnt really prove anything.
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Maybe it will be best to see why killers are using ruin, I question you devs and anyone who thinks the gens speeds and the ruin changes are fine, you must think about all killers who are and have been complaining about gens.
In my opinion you should rework every generator perk the Generators themselves well as the toolbox + add ons this is because they don’t really work together in a friendly way and it’s just survivors fighting killers over generator speed “toolbox v ruin”.
As a killer main who has played over 3000h, generators progressively keep getting faster even with ruin, maybe it’s perhaps the ruin/totem spots, but to nerf ruin is just blank stupidity. Yes it was a step in the right direction but don’t be that crazy.
But to sum it all up, fix gens and totems that should be 1st priority
-Maybe without survivor bias treat survivors and killers as the same, after all there people to.
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Of course killers hang on to it like a crutch. Virtually every match I play it's a hex ruin. It comes to show you that if the developers were smarter they would make it to where perks that cause a generator regression stack like all the health add-ons they nerfed because killers were crying.
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So...how exactly would you effect these perks?
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Id like it if they added an extra effect on ruin that made repairing gens 20% slower so that when regression starts its actually troublesome, this would also give killers a little more time in the beginning of a match. I think it would be fair since ruin is a hex perk and is often destroyed in the first 3 minutes of a game.
I also think in general other hex perks need to be stronger or start out working with hexs like lullaby and 3rd seal while also receiving a slight buff.
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Unpopular opinion but I actually like the new ruin (playing with and going against it).
I'd say removing the great skill check bonus and making toolboxes 5/10/15% less effective would be a healthy buff.
It's funny though because old ruin forced survivors to get better. New ruin forces killers to get better. Regardless, both versions will still be broken before you get a chance to use them.
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If the new Ruin stays a hex totem. The one thing that I would like to see addressed as well the whole Tap and Run thing to stop a generators regression. Just make it so the survivors have to spend the same amount of time touching a gen as a killer with Brutal Strength needs to kick it. Completely stopping a generators regression by touching it for half a second when the killer has to stop and kick to get it to regress in the first place is one of the more annoying things that happens. Yes the auto regression of the new Ruin will hurt Tap and Run but that is only as long as the totem is up, you get unlucky and they spawn right next to your totem and well so much for that.
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This is the kind of response I expect, which is also why nothing is going to change to make this game better.
It takes time to place traps if you don't have the time to do that, then you can be safe looped easily. Countering Freddy is easy when you know how to do it, since I mainly play Freddy I have no trouble against him. Literally all of his powers give notifications before hand so they are easily avoided, and he can't get the drop on any survivors without a perk like Tinkerer. The only reason he is strong is not his anti-looping potential, it's because of his power to teleport across the map to gen's. On most maps then you can actually get to gens in time before they are complete - but if the team of survivors are all good enough to only get great skill checks those gen's are finished in less than 20 seconds with 2 survivors (since more survivors on one gens increases the chances of getting a skill check, and if they both only get great skill checks that's even less time on the generator).
But yeah, i'm wrong because of the killer I played, and the fact I dc'd when that seems to be the only way to get BHVR to start seeing problems with the game. Even though the math, and reality proves otherwise.
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I do know the devs want to do something to change the situation.
But if the devs have to nerf the Ruin in this way, please compensate the killers some ways to protect the gens equally. Maybe some perks can let the killer see the progress of the gen by the color of the gens' aura.
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@Pythonheir they were probably responding to what you said about having to run around in circles like a bot. Freddy can place snares at a loop while the survivor is using it without getting slowed and cutting the amount of use they can get out of it. As for the gen problem, he uses gen-related perks better than most. I wouldn't even bother with ruin, but if you do try protecting it with a snare.
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You keep saying the gen gets done within 20 seconds... Thats not possible. only 1 of those survivors in your picture even had a toolbox, so it wouldnt be possible for them to cleanse your ruin and pop 2 gens in the timespan of 20 seconds...even if they all spawned perfectly in their positions and required no walking time.
Also...Freddy has GREAT chase potential. His teleport is also great so you can cut down on travel time in-between chases, but his snares are nothing to scoff at.
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Swapped ruin out for Surge as soon as Demo was released on my Freddy build. It actually works really well on him.
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I switch a lot but I usually pick two out of discordance, tinkerer or tremors. Pop if I'm feeling mean.
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