Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
I think this represents how powerful it is to face a team of 4 survivors.And as only spirits AND nurses They are the only killers that can stand up to swf Because the other killers don't have enough skill
https://youtu.be/x6p4OtdwOy0
Comments
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We have known this for a long time. Once you get good enough, Spirit and Nurse are the only options. The rest of the cast are just too weak. Bad spawns, insane tile rng, and second chance perks ######### anyone that aren't those two. Blight and Hag are top tier killers as well and Blight makes the odd appearance and Hag never shows up.
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Whether you 4k or 0k all the stress and pressure is put onto the killer to perform. Ultimately, this is the worst aspect of this game. As Steah and thousands before have said this is because of several bad design issues. Killer is stressful, survivor is chill. Change that, and it won't matter nearly as much about killer viability and balance and such.
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I mean it's nothing new.
Everyone knows at the skill ceiling survivors are the ones in charge unless you are very good with spirit or nurse, and that's only because those killers bypass a lot of chase and loop mechanics.
This game was not meant to be that competitive which is probably why they balance for brown ranks.
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Blight would have to disagree. The man is a walking pinball GOD!
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I don't think everyone does know this though. Just browse the forums and peep the "Nemesis is OP" and killer nerf threads. Most of this community is clueless on the game.
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It doesn't matter how good killer player is, with M1 killer like wraith vs comp team?
Nothing new about this
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I don't think Truis as great as he thinks he is...
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Speed doesn't matter if you're an M1 killer. It can work for somewhat high level, but clearly not the highest. Also, forced penance is apparently meta now.
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Not really, the average SWF teams out there are mostly casual players who just want to play with their friends but most of them lack experience and skill, the only reason why teams like oracle are able to do this is not only because they are playing on a SWF team but also because we are talking about some of the best players out there, players who refine and polish their strategy to the maximum by playing lots of games, they practice their strategy hundreds of times, most top players have thousands of hours of play time under their belt, a regular and average SWF team will never be this efficient (I have seen people who have played for a year and are still below 700 hours of play time while a top player probably plays 400 hours+ a month) so comparing them is not really a good argument, I'm not saying that a regular/average SWF team donesn't have any advantages at all but they will never be as efficient as top tournament players, saying that a SWF is always gonna be better than the killer is just not always gonna be the case.
Average SWF teams are casual players who play a few times a week, and most of them play with the intention of just laughing together while playing, not with the intention of getting better at the game nor polish their strategy or become efficient, this argument only works for top tournament players and no one else.
Post edited by Ink_Eyes on11 -
He is not the best in the world but he is pretty good. Someone like Dowsey who plays sweaty and almost every match he plays optimally, got just 2 hooks vs this team as Wraith.
The problem is low tier killer in comp play, not really the player.
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I've watched the match and my conclussions are: he was playing like it was a normal match and chosed Wraith which is a bad killer against competitive teams and a hit&run build against that kind of teams are a bad choice too (two bad decisions), they aren't a bunch of randoms, they were 4 tryharders with perfectly planified builds with perks equiped for concrete tasks (for example the guy with balance landing repairing the gen in the second floor of the house) and voice coms.
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I don’t know if that’s entirely correct. While SWF is really powerful, only a handful are near the skill of Oracle. Oracle is the best team in the world, but let’s not say that they set a good example.
They’re far better and more optimal than the average SWF. I do think only a certain amount of killers become viable when a SWF plays well, but this is just a bad example of it.
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Thing is these guys weren't just any SWF, they're a competitive 4 man SWF playing to win the game. They are extremely rare and shouldn't at all be getting judged on DBD balance. Plus, it doesn't help that Tru is using Wraith, a Killer that heavily relies on a hit and run playstyle which is extremely bad to use against people of this caliber. His build wasn't doing him any favors either, if he used a more competitive build like Rundying + Noed + haunted/retribution on a Killer that doesn't rely on that playstyle then he would've done better.
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While I do not consider Tru one of the top killers (he is solid but nothing special) he is in fact right about game balance for the most part. At the highest level of play the game falls apart, it's impossible to win unless your killer can ignore literally every defense survivors get. The game is not balanced around high level SWFs and as such they will always dominate the game.
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The build is irrelevant: he would have lost either way. The game needs to be balanced to prevent games like that from happening. By not balancing for good players, BHVR is pretty much saying they don’t care about people who have really put alot of time and money into their game. Why should a killer wanna play in matches that they have no chance in? There is a reason survivor que sucks.
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Why not use Bamboozle on Wraith? It's like the best perk for him. I think I could take them with my Wraith build and add-ons. No Iri's. How does one get ahold of this team to face them as killer? I would LOVE a crack at 'em :D
(Edit: Even his build is weird for a competitive play style and so are his add-ons. Also, he's playing Wraith much differently from what I do. I stand on the corners to get a hit and a pallet drop. Just standing in front of it won't get you nothing but a pallet drop and infinitely looped to death. Also, he's relying too much on body blocking the pallets when you should use his uncloak speed to force them on one side or the other for a hit and a pallet drop. At least, that's how I play.)
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I think the point was to prove that wraith is viable at top level which isn't true.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Yeah I'm not sure what anyone expected. Even if he played perfectly the game just fundamentally does not work at that level. I still don't understand why people want matches balanced for these types of matches. I don't think they realize that means literally reworking the game from the ground up which will never happen.
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I think it's pretty well known that really competent survivors with voice are in charge of the game and the majority of the killer roster can't compete with the power of an optimized SWF.
Tru3 is a good player but it was pretty obvious he won't stomp a comp team with Wraith.
That being said - DbD is not a competitive game even if people want to make it look like one.
No proper Matchmaking
Heavy RNG due to tile spawns
The game being designed around the fact survivors can't communicate but .. voice chat
An Addon System that relies on RNG (Blood Web) and ig currency
Killer power gaps - for example Nurse vs. Myers
Keys and previsouly Moris
Unpredictable abilities (Addons and Perks you can't adjust your play style to before it potentially already has done its damage)
In it's current state this game is probably the farthest it can be from being a competitive e-sports game and that's fine. Not every game is supposed to be a super competitive e-sports title.
This game is a casual game you can enjoy and have fun with. There are just some people who want to take this game further than it's supposed to be but imho this game would ned a complete overhaul to be remotely close to being an e-sport title.
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Because if its not balanced at the top level its not balanced. Thats just a true statement like it or not. People not at the top will always make mistakes that can be capitalized on by the other side.
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Because, with MMR, a few of us are going to be getting matches similar.
Perhaps not the same caliber, but people who come to win and who know how to exploit the game's balance issues.
It's likely foolish to hope for any changes, but hey, I'm still fighting for better optimization, what's one more fool's errand?
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For me it feels like he spends way too much time just trying to decide who to go for. He gets his first M1 at exactly 1:41 meanwhile gens are going off, which is just insane to me.
Just pointing out what I observed. It is very easy to lose gens when you spend too much time not even injuring someone.
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I agree that the game probably would need to be reworked, but BHVR could still do some things to help. God tiles shouldn’t exist: there is no gameplay for killer, the survivor just imposes his/her will. Then you have nerfs to killers like pyramid head that make absolutely no sense other than catering to people who don’t want to learn.
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Wait what nerfs did PH get? If you're talking about the cage nerfs then nvm because he got PoTD buffed at the same time which made him stronger.
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Cant we also reverse it then and say competitive swf are the only teams that can win against a good spirit or Nurse?
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The problem is that this power trickles down. A mediocre swf team that would fall apart like a bunch of rank 20s solo, will make a good killer sweat.
A good swf team start to delete killers from the roster
A great swf team delete all but nurse and spirit
A tournament team put stress on god tier nurse and spirit
Most of my solo survivor games have 5 gens done at 3 or 5 hooks for the killer, and he gets more from survivors attempting to save at end game instead of just leaving the killer with a 1k.
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No, because being a good nurse or spirit isn´t a guaranteed win against competitive swf. They just stand a better chance.
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Dowsey did the same test with his own playstyle and got the same result. It isn't the player that is the problem, it is the core mechanics of the game.
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Show all matches against random pubs where he demolishes them.
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Your point?
When or if mmr is implemented this won't happen any more. Red ranks are a mash of really bad and good players and are basically meaningless.
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Its not that other killers don't have enough skill. It's that their powers are designed within limitations that Nurse and Spirit to an extent aren't. The best Nurse in the world could also be the best Trapper in the world and still lose when not playing Nurse.
They only stand up to these top teams because they literally break the game and bypass mechanics EVERY other killer abides by in some way. And I think that says something about the base design of the game.
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Do you have gameplay of your playstyle? Im interested in getting better as wraith.
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He isn't entitled to win all the time or 4k all the time and he's isn't even that great as he thinks... Otz lost to 4 man console team does that make otz bad or swf overpowered? Nope they just played better he stomped swfs in streak and than lost to one as expected and that's fine
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Another reason is that the vast, vast majority of player (on both sides) aren't very good. If they balanced around this top 5% or so (if that) they'd probably lose a lot of casual players. Balancing around tournament teams would be ridicolous considering what a mess this game is and was never intended to be played that way.
Plus if they started balancing around SWF Tru3 would need to find a new boogeyman to complain about when he loses lol
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His cooldown “buff” isn’t noticeable. I main Nurse. Why would i invest time into a killer who isn’t as rewarding but is instead super capped to appeal to baby survivors? I know DBD in and out. PH is a worthless killer.
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Different strokes for different folks.
Personally I don't like to play killer like Nurse and Spirit as I find the lacking counterplay makes them extremely boring and makes every chase and match identical. It's also incredibly rare to go against a team in pubs where that level of power is required to win.
I mean, I think Freddy is one of the most boring killers power wise but I enjoy playing him because its freddy and I love the glove animations and such. Micheal is weak as hell but I love playing him because he's Micheal Myers.
If all you want is to win then yeah Spirit and Nurse are the go-tos.
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I mean, is that really such a terrible thing though when you consider things like the fact that the amount of players that are even close to that level of skill or coordination to play like that (let alone do it outside of scrims with their team.) is extremely low? I mean, it's not like DBD has a super big tournament/comp scene, even if people try to say it does. (Sure, there are some tournaments here and there, but the amount of players that are actually in those teams and or even close to that level is extremely low.) It's not like every SWF you face is that level of coordinated, or every Killer you face is a god-tier Nurse.
Idk, I just don't think balancing around the top percentage of the game is an option. It's boring. Survivors finish gens too fast for that, and unless they added comms, solos will never have the coordination needed to pull off half of what a SWF this coordinated would do. (Besides, I think a lot of the community agree that they enjoy chase in this game- be they a Killer or Survivor main. Might just be me, but I think the game would die if you'd be lucky to get a chase in a game as Survivor, and as both sides the only way to play chases is to play the two Killers that pretty much eliminate Chases by having them last for 2 seconds, since both killers pretty much ignore Survivor input and ignores fun mind games and fakes.)
Idk, I've just always thought this whole 'Top down balance' wouldn't work for DBD.
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It wouldn't. Not even remotely. But people on here and other places want to act like high level play in this game is like CS GO or something.
And you're right about Spirit and Nurse almost entirely removing survivor skill. That's an issue with DBD as a whole though. Its not an easy fix. Killers need counterplay to remain fun and interesting for both sides imo, I dropped Spirit and Nurse a few months after starting playing them because there was no challenge anymore in public games, and I didn't care enough to want to try playing against competitive teams. When you remove survivor agency and make a killer whose only counter is the lack of a killers skill you basically turn it into a single player game and those killer powers just encourage genrushing further as its the survivors only option.
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You do realize that if they balance the game around comp casual players will have no chance, right? Everyone would leave this game instantly and you will have a more killer sided game than it already is.
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Fighting games are balanced for top level play and people leaving isn’t an issue. Games like MK11 and Injustice have been out half the time and have probably far outsold DBD.
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Do you realize that balancing this game about players with less than 10 hours causes veterans to leave, because they have no chance?
Because the game is survivor sided af. Before the RE chapter released, survivors already had a 10 minute queue during prime time. Do you want even longer queues? Because the queues WILL cause players to leave.
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This game is NOT survivor sided, please stop being so blind and face the issue. Solo survivors are suffering everyday against campers, tunnelers, stridor spirits and nurses and on top of all that, a million gen regression perks. The survivor queue is only long at night, when most people are asleep and that is understandable. If you make this game any more killer sided all survivors will leave, because right now we are getting ######### on.
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That's why, if they aren't going to do anything about SWF, they need to bring solo queue up to that level of potential and then balance the game accordingly.
Right now, there's too much of a gap between SWF and Solo, so balancing for one or the other is going to screw someone over; they need to give the same tools to all players. Sure, a pre-made, coordinated team will always do better than 4 randoms, but that's the same in every game; pre-made teams are almost always going to play better than random match-made teams.
The problem is, not only are Solo's lacking in coordination naturally, but they don't have access to the biggest game-changing tool that most SWF have: comms.
They need to give Solo Q access to comms, imo. I know it doesn't fit their original vision for the game, but sticking their head in the sand and ignoring how powerful comms are(and that they're used), is resulting in this mess we have now.
Once you give Solo Q comms(voice and non-voice I.E. pings etc.), you'll see the overall Survivor performance increase, and then you can start bringing Killer up to speed. I think showing builds/items to your teammates before the match could help, as well. Perfect balance is probably impossible, but you can get much closer to a fair game than what we have now, just not with the massive rift between Solo Q and SWF.
Also, imo, you should always balance a game around the top-level play. If you don't, the game is unbalanced at it's core. If it's unbalanced, at some point it becomes unfair; if it's balanced, you might lose, but at least you know that it was on you. Fairness is at the core of competition.
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Fighting games aren't Asyms.
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You say we should not compare those swf and players to regular ones, yet in every nerf spirit-thread they just talk about the top spirits with 2k $ headphones. The average spirit is never the point in those threads, and i really think we have to use the same metric for all aspects of the game, not just for one side, whichever metric we chose.
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19:00 is when most people sleep?
Killers stacking gen slowdown perks is a sign of how killers struggle against insane gen times. Even with them, 2 or 3 gens get repaired by the time the killer gets his first hook. 3 or 4 hooks by the time all gens are completed isn´t healthy for the game. Killers camp and tunnel, because they are told to jUsT aPpLy PrEsSuRe and thats what they do by getting someout out early. Creating a miserable experience for everyone.
PvP games should never be balanced around new players. They should be accessible with tutorials for them. But the balancing needs to be done around high skill players.
Or have you ever seen CS, R6 or LoL getting balanced around Bronze ranks?
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That is a fair point, but the difference is that... there isn't much disparity in skill between someone playing Spirit for a week and a year. For her power her actual skill cap is relatively low. Compare that to Nurse and its a world of difference. Nurse takes crazy mechanical skill and map/survivor knowledge to play effectively vs a good team.
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Pick a genre…they all balance for top level.
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Yes but Asyms are a special case, especially one as RNG and perk heavy as DBD. Where 2 teams can get the same map and one has an even spread of pallets all over the map and the other side gets half of that only on one side.
Also, yeah, Guilty Gear Strive and Street Fighter 5 are REALLY balancing for top level players, what with the removal of one frame links from SF4 and such.
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