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How could Devs decrease the amount of tunnlers and campers if they wanted to?
Since the devs seem to love campers and tunnlers because they are kissing their asses by not punishing this at all, what could they do in a world, where they would want to change something?
I thought of slower dying on the hook and floor, when the killer is beneath the hook for too long.
I know, they are saying that this is a tactic and the remaining survs could do gens instead, but what is about the surv who will depip and won´t make any points, just because a random person in the internet decided to be a complete dick.head?
This is simply not fair. Also they should do something against flashlight clicking and teabagging by stopping the animation and not letting the survivor using his flashlight / crouching for like 20 seconds after he spammed it. This would cause them to not doing it so much anymore.
I assume, that we had plenty threads like this before, but this is the big minus of the game, it should stop toxic people to project their anger on other people.
Comments
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Flashlight clicking / tea bag for more hook/ bleedout time seems like a really weird one sided trade.
5 -
Tunneling and camping are valid strategies and are not going anywhere.
If you want tunneling removed, you need to massively slow down the game, which is a huge Survivor nerf. Is that worth it to you?
You can't really stop camping, there are situations that call for it and there always will be.
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true, but i was wondering how you could prevent killers from doing that. I can understand why you get tilted as a killer when you get clicked and teabagged but getting facecamped and tunneled is frustrating because you can literally do nothing against it. Even IF the rest will do gens, you can only get 3 gens done in that time. It´s stupid, how such people can ruin this game for you so easily. Also with those enormous waiting time in lobbys, you are basically doing nothing while playing, when you are either waiting for a game or waiting for your death on hook.
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It´s stupid, how such people can ruin this game for you so easily.
The problem with that statement is that you're assuming they're trying to ruin your game. 99% of the time, they're not. The 1% are just #########. Your enjoyment doesn't factor into their decision-making process any more than their enjoyment factors into yours.
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Do you know why there are enormous queue times for Survivor?
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I guess you want to give a hint, that no one wants to play killer because the game is survivor sided?
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i wasn´t saying directly, that they try it on purpose, but they do ruin it for many people by facecamping and tunneling the ######### out of them.
We played like 20 rounds today, and in at least 10 rounds, someone got facecamped or tunneled into oblivion. And if the same person gets tunneled/camped in every frickin´ round, you will get tilted sooner or later.
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I was asking you why you thought there were massive queue times for Survivor.
If I wanted to tell, I would've.
I'd like to see what you think first
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The real "problem" isn't Tunneling or Camping per say but rather that a Player is bored and feeling left out. That is the nature of this game, something that we simply must accept. I think the real solution is something radical that doesn't require rebalancing the entire game. I think the person on the hook should end up in a game within a game. This isn't purely my idea, but rather something born of a discussion I had with someone else who made claims (and comments) very much like yours. Imagine if the following change was made:
- Stage-1 remains the same as it is now. The Survivor can sit on the hook and wait for his/her Teammates to save them or choose to try to unhook themselves at the risk of accelerating the arrival of the Entity and Stage-2.
- Stage-2 is fundamentally different. While everyone else sees the Survivor struggling on the hook, trying to hold off the Entity's talons, that Player is utterly unaware of the game in progress and is locked in a metaphysical battle with the Entity. That Player is now inside a game within a game. The simple Skill Checks are replaced by an intense, relatively difficult series of puzzles or perhaps even a fighting game, where the Survivor can attempt to earn additional time or even manage a tremendously difficult unhook. This would have the benefit of giving the Player something interesting to do, not just sit on the hook watching other people, and the ability to EARN that extra time (or even an escape) that you mention. This would address the REAL problem which is boredom or the feeling of impotence. The interesting thing is if/when you are unhooked by another Survivor before you fail inside this inner battle, you would be ripped away from the Entity's grasp and snapped back into perception of the main match which you rejoin.
- From a coding standpoint, a game within a game, something that only connects to the overall match in minimal way, would be less demanding on the code staff, as it does not really need to be intimately tied into the existing spaghetti code. I've been giving thought to the nature of this game within a game, but I'm not done with my own personal design suggestions yet. And to be honest, my ideas for that aspect of it are unimportant. I'm sure our large, imaginative Player base could come up with lots of things (and perhaps lots of radical little games within a game would be another facet as you never know what you will be doing in this personal battle with the Entity will entail).
My view is that right now we are all approaching this the wrong way, i.e. trying to find ways to balance (an impossible task) getting rid of time on the hook, when what we need to be doing is making the time on the hook more interesting.
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Why is that your opinion? In my experience, the best killer don´t need no Noed, Camping or Tunneling at all. They just beat the ######### out of every team. We are by the way a decent SWF, not top notch but we know what to do and 3/4 of us know how to loop a killer for some time.
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Indeed he is,, or at the very least it's not fun enough for a lot of people due to quality of gameplay, the math adds up if you look at it
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Queue time are instant for me whole day except night time I really don't see where y'all see this obnoxious waiting for game what servers y'all use
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You didn't ask me, but I'm going to give my two cents anyway. Pulsar knows this game and has been around a long time (longer than me). His commentary is bang on the nose. I suspect my time, hours in game, dwarfs yours, and his dwarfs mine. Experience can be a tricky thing to reference as "evidence" for support to your assertions since there are people who have been here for FOUR years and most of them also will tell you the same thing Pulsar did.
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Night time is when there are most players, which is why queues are longer during that time. Most people have jobs or classes that keep them busy during the day.
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"Tunneling and camping are valid strategies and are not going anywhere." - So, allow me to explain what I think OP means. I think it's obvious to everyone that those are valid strategies right now. He is saying that perhaps developers could make those strategies INVALID. And replace them with other equally VALID strategies that would be more fun for everyone.
That's like calling a plumber and saying:
- (OP) my toiled is clogged and it stinks
- (YOU) of course it's clogged and stinks because shot stinks and you popped in it.
- (OP)...
- (YOU) that shot is not going anywhere and so is stink
- (OP) how about you fix it by unclogging it? maybe? just a thought...
- (YOU) no! clogged toilets always stunk and so you should get used to it!
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i wasn´t saying directly, that they try it on purpose, but they do ruin it for many people by facecamping and tunneling the [BAD WORD] out of them.
And you ruin theirs by looping, but I'll bet you never considered not looping, nor did you ever consider making suggestions to stop looping, nor did you accuse the devs of "kissing loopers' asses by not punishing them".
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living in Germany, using their servers. Around 6pm to 10pm, we have to wait at least 10 minutes for a lobby. Killers get a lobby in instant.
I know the problem is, that at that time most groups gather together to play SWF and some people of these would play killer instead without their friends. Every Killer who plays SWF instead is a massive addition to the waiting time.
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Yeah understandable that's time I wait litlle bit longer but whole day since morning till 10 pm evening they're instant
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what should survivor do instead? Just die? Killers have many other ways to win a round, they can simply keep pressure on gens or being good in loops. Killers who have a lack of skill will camp and tunnel instead because it is easy and you get so much out of it.
Survivors on the other hand can only do gens and loop to get out. Sorry but thats such a dumb comparison.
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And you make the assumption that the DEV haven't already looked into tested and tested again multiple strategies to that effect. In every test (time and time again) the methods were abused by Survivors, didn't really stop Camping or Tunneling and had the added problem of costing us Killers and making Queues unbearable. The DEV have gone a different route and accept those strategies are part of Player Agency, i.e. play style and put things in to reward Killers for other behaviors and to make doing so slightly less BP profit. In turn, they give Survivors a METRIC TON of things to use against Camping and Tunneling and all that jazz.
What some Players seem to ignore (or perhaps are actually ignorant of) is that you have everything you need to deal with those tactics yourselves. They gave you the knives and forks, but it is up to you to tackle that steak.
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Thank you! Finally someone understands. I was even writing it in the title, what they COULD do, if they wanted to.
But hey lets bash the people and their ideas for no reason instead, right?
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You can stealth.
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North America.
Queue's for Survivor are 10+ minutes and Killer queue's are instant.
Most people know that Survivor queue's are pretty bad.
2 -
*laughs in BBQ, Stridor, doctor, and so on and so on*
Next try please.
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10 mins? Bruh I would be long gone to another game lol mine are instant whole day after 10 pm in evening they're about 3-4 mins so bit longer but still okay
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BBQ? Get in a locker. Stridor? Get in a locker. Doctor? Get in a locker.
I stealth just fine. Maybe the problem is that you're too used to looping and can't immediately adapt to a different strategy.
4 -
Tunneling isn't really an issue.
The effort required to change those things would be enormous, and we'd be right back where we started, ultimately.
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We understand, far better than you know or do yourself. Game balance is a harsh mistress. A little research on your part will reveal to you the DEV have done all sorts of things, with extensive testing. There are things already in the game to encourage Killers to other behaviors and penalize them for staying too close to the hook. What there has been a drop in is Survivors who make safe rescues, take protection hits, steal chases, trade hooks, and all the painful hard choices it takes for a team to beat a an individual. I play both Survivor and Killer, so my views on this are not biased toward one or the other. I manage to get out of MORE games alive than dead playing Solo. I run into the same number of Campers and those that Tunnel as you do statistically. Why am I not in a rage and urging ridiculous punishments? Why is it I and countless others manage to rise to the occasion and get by in the face of adversity?
The tone and language of your original post is rude and not constructive at all. What makes you think that the DEV would listen to you with an approach like that? Constructive, civil feedback is better. Accusing them of kissing asses is merely going to get them to stop reading and move on. At that point, they figure you are the Moderator's problem. I'm eating my dinner, so I'm not going to give you a long lesson on how to deal with your problems, other than to suggest that blaming YOUR problems and failures on other Players or the game is holding you back. You have to take responsibility for your part in every hook you sit on, and start to work on what YOU can do to mitigate the things you are having trouble with. There will be no Deus Ex Machina from the DEV. This is the game; it is YOUR job to figure out how to thrive here.
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You mean all those perks, they nerfed into oblivion because Killers cried so much about them? Yeah tell me more about it.
If they would try to balance camping and tunneling, they wouldn´t nerf the strongest perks against it.
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It's part of the reason why I haven't done all my Rift stuff yet. I can play an entire Killer game and find a new one in the time it takes to load into a Survivor lobby.
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Just because I said they were bad ideas and pointed out the flaws doesn't mean that I'm bashing them.
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What Rank do you play at?
How many hours do you have?
What perks do you think are OP?
What characters do you think are OP?
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I'm well aware that they tried a few years ago... and then gave up. There are tons of ideas posted on this forum how to fix this. So let me continue the plumber analogy:
(OP) soooooo... my toilet is still clogged...
(PLUMBER) well, last time I tried that one product and it didn't work.
(OP) can you try another product.
(PLUMBER) no, I already tried one.
(OP) can you try another one.
(PLUMBER) What are you insane?! I've got no time for that. As I said, I tried one!
(OP) well, what can I do? It's stinks here. Please help!
(PLUMBER) How about I send you a bunch of product perks and you do it yourself
(OP) I suppose I could... But you are a plumber... I'll pay you a lot. Please help!
(PLUMBER) I've got no time for that! Go read the manuals and do it yourself! I'm busy decorating my lawn here! Do you want me to send you a gnome for your lawn?
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Yeah if they're that long it's understandable I usually play survivor during day and killer during night
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Rank 1 Survivor (not yet because of the funny resets :D)
1,4 k of hours
There are no op perks or killer, just some which need literally no skill or anything else like Noed. But that´s not the topic here.
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Here's the problem.
I don't see tunneling or camping as an issue.
It happens so infrequently that it is a non-issue. I've played close to 100 Survivor games in the last month and I've seen ONE person be facecamped and two or three get hardcore tunneled. That's 1/100 Survivors. That's probably near the same ratio that Killers get deathsquad SWF.
You just remember the unpleasant experiences more clearly because your brain is wired to.
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According to my experience, it seems that no DEV ever read anything in this forum at all, because they did so many things in the opposite way of the actual needed things like:
"hey the hitboxes are broken, could you please fix them?" - "no, but here are some overpriced skins, go buy them instead"
or
"hey there are some uncleansable totemspots, could you please take them out" - "no we leave them there for 6 months and you can get some perk nerfs and buffs literally no one asked for".
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I find your Plumber analogy amusing, but not really relevant here. I know you THINK it is but you are wrong. Let me point another salient fact out to you. This game is a luxury item to you and I. It is a diversion, a way to kill some time. For bEhavior and the DEV it is their jobs on the line. They have a view of the game that none of ever see, and their very paychecks are bet against doing the right thing which means making sure the rough balance OVERALL is healthy for the game's continued existence. Nobody has a greater vested interest in making DbD work than they do. In short, your comments are foolish. We can take the ongoing success of DbD as supporting evidence of the fact that they do know something about what they are doing. We only see the things we WANT based on personal bias. They see the things they must do. Are they incapable of error? No, of course not. Are there things I'd love them to do? Absolutely, but I also understand that they move in their own way at their own speed for their own reasons.
In regards to Player Agency, those in the role of Killer want (and need) just as much free choice as those in the role of Survivor. Nobody wants to be reduced to playing just a chase Bot. Killers have very few choices to make in the game as opposed to Survivors, and mostly it boils down to who to chase and when, when to defend (camp) and when not to go hunt and pressure. Everything they do is a variation of these limited options. If we taking away their right to defend (camp) then we have made them Bots, and no different from the old Ghosts that used to run patterns in Pac Man. Nobody is going to be interested in doing that for long. Without enough Killers, this game dies. So it is time for you to put on your grown up pants and spend more time practicing your BASICS in game and less on your funny analogies.
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My SWF is kinda good. Nothing special, but we know our jobs.
We haven't lost more than 2 people at any point this year. There have been a handful of Killers that have actually posed any sort of a threat to us.
I say all this to prove my point. Your personal experience shouldn't dictate balance. I know that just because my SWF is winning a lot, doesn't mean that we should nerf Survivor into the ground.
Likewise, just because I've only had 2 teams escape through the Gates against me in 2021, I know that doesn't mean that Killers need to be nerfed into the ground.
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As i wrote before, we had like 20 games today, we got facecamped 3 times and tunneled like 6-7 times on top of that. I see, that many unexperienced killers in the lower ranks are there and they do this because the matchmaking is broken with the actual ranks. But it still sucks to get facecamped and tunneled in like 30% of the game.
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Inexperienced Killers do it to compensate for a lack of knowledge in the game. When they rank up, they stop doing these things because they no longer work. If they continue to work, then the Survivors are at fault for allowing it to work.
You kinda just solved your own problem.
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we are running circles here and i will stop the discussion here for my site. You are definitely not wrong with that. Survivors are giving the killers reasons to camp and tunnel because it works when they don´t do gens instead. But as i wrote before, this situation sucks for the hooked teammate in both scenarios and he can´t do absolutely nothing against it.
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Did you miss my post about a different approach to dealing with that?
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"but I also understand that they move in their own way at their own speed for their own reasons" - you should have started with that! Obvious fact: this thread is not for you. Move on to another one! This thread is created by a person who is not satisfied with the way they move. You are satisfied. So there is no common ground. Also, try not to sound like a corporate shill with full time job shutting down discussion that don't flatter the company. Do you get a bonus when you get to 4k comments?
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I don't know if I'd necessarily call camping and tunneling problems that can be fixed. Camping especially - there isn't really an anti-camping mechanism that would work without being abusable or extremely complicated, this has been tested. Sometimes camping is the right play, like in endgame, if there are almost repaired gens near the hook or if the entire team is swarming the hook.
I guess some way to alert the team the killer is camping would be nice - a ping system, maybe. Tunneling physically cannot be stopped, though, without giving survivors something ridiculous like invincibility if you're chased for too long. You can't stop a killer from chasing a survivor if they really, really want to.
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There is no problem if you don't see it as an issue. Weird fact: the world doesn't revolve around you. It's like color blind settings. I'm not color blind, so I don't need those settings. But that's absolutely not a problem for me if it's added for people who are colorblind. If it's not an issue for you, it doesn't mean that it should not be fixed for those who feel it's an issue. Also, do a search on this forum for "camping" and you will see over 1000 pages of results. It's brought daily, so obviously it's an issue for many people.
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You mean the perks the survivor got to curve around tunneling and camping (named nerfed DS and 12 second Borrowed time aka Hookswitching?)
again i am not talking about giving survivor super strength to get it all done with ease. I more likely meant to lead the killers into another way of playing by giving them bonus points or minus points for certain behaviour. Or making the rating system more viable by putting mean killers and mean survivor in lobbies together or something like that. I know it´s hard, this thread was meant like "in a perfect world, how would it be?"
But most of you guys overread this part.
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I'm just going to say what I've always said. Make more killer perks that discourage these activities that way people don't run them have free will to do what they want and people who do run them will not camp or tunnel unless absolutely necessary. Anyways not all people do it be toxic. They do it because its the best strategy.
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Just because a lot of people think something doesn't mean it is correct.
Many of the posts you see daily are from new players trying to deal with it. While their opinions matter, they do not carry the same weight as someone who has thousands of hours in the game.
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And in my opinion it shouldn´t be the best strategy. it should be the last straw they can grab. But its the easiest way to play the game and also the most frustrating for survivors. If it would be the strategy, where you would need the most skill, it would be another thing because not everybody can do it. But you can simply run around the hook waiting for the depressed survivor on the hook to die.
1
