How could Devs decrease the amount of tunnlers and campers if they wanted to?
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It's also the fact that most of his posts get upvotes, might just give on these forums, I've tried and just been attacked for opinions, and watched people like him attack others.
Forums are at least 60% killer mains with opinions I will never agree with. Just gonna leave, guess Shroud wins, gg man, enjoy spending your entire day on the forums telling survivors they're wrong instead of playing the game.
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Is it unfun? Do they need to be removed? probably not
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Ok lets all stand down for a moment calm down take deep breaths.
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It is impossible to straight up remove camping, but there should be more done to give a killer no reason to ever resort to it.
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Understood. :)
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Didn´t know that actually (never tried it ;) ), i was just curious because you got an upvote right after you posted it. I thought it had to be a self upvote. Sorry for that.
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Survivors are the ones who must punish killer's mistakes. Killer is tunneling? - don't unhook too early, trade hooks, take agro. Killer is camping - work on generators. There's nothing more, nothing less. Developers already fixed Freddy and wraith camping powers.
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You know that there are many killers, who will come back for the unhooked person from the other site of the map (which will take a lot of time) just to get them downed and hooked again? Of course if i unhook right infront of their face, it´s my fault. But if i wait and the killer still comes back, there is nothing you can really do.
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well one other thing is they'll come back to the hook because it garuntees there's another person at the hook. and another thing is some people don't know the difference between tunneling and the killer running into you again by sheer dumb luck.
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I don't know where you find those killers but at a high level and in some tournaments, killers are going to camp and slugg and tunnel if given the opportunity they will do it.
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because if there's no other thing for killers to do, they will go to the hook, and if survivors healing after getting unhooked that's their fault + We'll gonna live forever exist.
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But i am talking about the often seen scenario, where the killer goes for the unhooked person, often even waits for borrowed to run out, completely ignoring the person who unhooked, even when they are sandbagging or other things. Thats tunneling and that happens a lot.
You as the unhooked person mostly can´t do anything against it, you can go for a loop but if you suck at looping, you will get downed again. We have some mates in our group, who are not good in looping, they constantly get tunneled out of the game and depip after that.
I know, they should just git gud, but that doesen´t change the fact, that the killer could have gone for the person who unhooked or completely ignoring them both, if he is already on the other site of the map.
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Yeah because the gens will pop like nothing, the players in tournament will memorize maps, they know exactly what to do. I am talking about casual players. We often get destroyed by players who don´t camp and tunnel, and i am totally fine with that. They are simply better.
I am also fine with getting tunneled and camped. I mean it sucks but i got used to it. Once again, i was talking about a special scenario where the devs would care about it as a problem.
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I wasn't going to say they need to git gud.
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I don't mean to intercept your conversation with someone else, but I don't understand one thing.
By the sounds of it, you think camping is fun because it (in your opinion) provides a challenge for survivors? Where is the challenge for a killer when it comes to that concept? I say this because as someone who religiously plays 50/50 (survivor and killer both in red ranks) I couldn't even fathom camping in the manner where it forces survivors to hold M1 and call that "fun". Like, I get it, maybe it is fun for others, but for me a challenge is when you have out-smarted survivors during a chase and patrolled generators preventing them from finishing their objective and in turn sacrificing them to the entity. Neither of which Camping for the entirety of a match provides.
Fun is subjective, yes. Camping and Tunneling feels too cheap let alone fun, for those of us who don't use it outside of where they were used as a strat.
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I comment on this in another thread, but it bears mentioning here too. Why do the Killers return to the hook? It is because the get an audible CUE from the game it self that says, "SOUPS ON! SURVIVORS ARE HERE! COME GET THEM!" I'm indulging in a little humor there but that is a fact. The DEV designed the game to tell Killers, provide them with clues, as to where the Survivors (at least two of them) are located. Ask yourself WHY the DEV did that? They expect the Killer, if he/she isn't chasing someone else and has no other clues, to turn around and go there. They do NOT expect the Killer to act against his/her own self interest. Do you see my point?
The DEV expect SURVIVORS to take actions to protect whomever it is they just unhooked. That is a SURVIVOR job, obligation, responsibility, etc. and in the Survivor's interest to do so. They get points for safe rescues, have another Survivor who gets back on Generators, and so on. Everything about a rescue is positive for Survivors. Consequently, it has to be earned and cannot come without risk. The DEV decided early on that the Killer hears a dinner bell. Blaming the Killer for acting on the advice of the game itself, is silly. :)
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there's already a solution to that. Unhooker takes full-on agro on killer, making themselves more interesting to down. The second solution is to bring DS, Unbreakable, Soul guard. If you're not using them you have to assume that killer will go for the weak link and most likely going to tunnel one person out of the game to have less pressure in the late game.
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For the record, I also play just as much Survivor as I play Killer (as a Solo too). That means my commentary is not based on any bias toward either role. Your question is a fair one, but I submit a couple of things:
- Camping and Tunneling are not automatic win buttons (particularly against good Survivors).
- Challenge and Conflict are the heart of the DbD game engine. This is a PvP game.
- Player Agency is the FUEL that keeps this engine running.
- Killers have fewer choices (agency) to make. They can search and destroy or defend. That is pretty much it. They choose who to chase, and whether to try and defend their downed prey or a specific Generator. Removing defending as an option reduces Killers to Bots, like the ghosts in that old Pac Man game. No choice equals no investment. No agency soon means no Killers. Those Players want to make their own choices too, so they must have some to make.
- I (most people in fact) can have fun in a game whether they win or lose as long as it was challenging.
- Fun doesn't come from the game. I know that is hard to understand, but we bring the fun with us. It is a mindset, nothing more. What an individual perceives as fun varies widely, but I assert that a competitive PvP game is probably best-suited for those that enjoy challenge and conflict. Their fun comes from trying to overcome the obstacles, and that they will have their fun win, lose, or draw. Those people who only enjoy a game if the outcome isn't really in doubt, and an eventual win is certain, are better served by games like World or Warcraft. I'm not saying that to be mean, just stating a fact. When you play World of Warcraft you are NOT really ever in any jeopardy. It is a time in grade thing, with cool visuals and a guaranteed outcome. You WILL win, it is only a matter of time (and not that long). The entire game is a reward engine. You get treats and gold stars far more often... MOST OF THE TIME... do you see my point? Dead by Daylight is different on a fundamental level. You could play this game for years, but until YOU get better, you will not succeed. You will only get treats when you earn them. The two games cater to very different types of people, or at least people who are looking for a different experience. There are those who play both games, but it is clear what they are looking for when they choose one over the other at a given time.
- Realistic expectations is the way to ensure your fun. If you have an unrealistic (or unreasonable) expectation about the outcome of a game, you are going to be unhappy with the results. The dissonance it causes will cut into your fun. To a large degree this is because our ego doesn't like being shown up. It kicks in as a self defense mechanism and causes us to scapegoat things, rationalize the loss, and so on. If you go into a game with lowered expectations, or assuming the worst, you are going to have a lot more fun.
- Long term goals are better for you because short term obstacles and reversals don't matter.
I have bunch more of this but I realize that I'm deviating for our core discussion of Camping and Tunneling. Let's go back to that, Killers do what Killers must, the same as Survivors. They are adapting to whatever the new normal is today. I know this because I play both roles. I have fun in BOTH roles. I take the good and the bad of both roles. I prefer to spend my time playing the game, rather than complaining about it. If I wasn't having fun, I 'd have already moved on to another game.
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What i would do is make spreading out the hooks among the survivors more attractive.
The thing at the moment is, getting rid of 1 survivor is reducing the "survivor power" by 25%, from 100% to 75%, or for this example, from 400% to 300%.
But what if the survivor power wouldnt go from 100 to zero in one go? Like giving a survivor a debuff for being hooked, reducing his gen efficency by 30%, after the second an additional 15%, but if he dies, each survivor alive gets a boost.
This way, it would be way better to hook the next survivor than just tunneling or camping the one you already got.
Action times might have to be adjusted, since its not about boosting survivors overall, but to give an incentive to spread out the damage. However, every hook would turn the table toward the killer anyway, but that would be my basic idea. You can still tunnel or camp if you like to, the reward is just not that great as it is at the moment.
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Could you please tell me how to work on a gen when your being camped I keep trying to becuase people on here keep telling me to do that. Is there a button combo in not aware of becuase I can never seem to work on gens when in on the hook being camped
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You know perfectly well nobody's suggesting that the camped survivor work on gens.
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Then maybe they should stop saying just work on gens when your being camped
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Stop being stupid. you know well that when we say that we mean the other 3 survivors.
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Why would alive survivor get a boost when their ally die? That just sound like a nerf to killer.
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Because the fear for their own life becomes stronger when they see their teammates die.
As i said, action times might need adjustments, since it should encourage to spread the hooks out. It shouldnt be a nerf or buff to either side. Also, percentages for debuffs are made up, but the first hook should be more important than a second hook and that more importand than the last hook. However, since the last hook will always take out a survivor, a boost might compensate if the killer goes for the hooktunneling approach, but might do next to nothing once all survivors have been hooked anyway (remember, even if they gain power from their dead friend, if they have been hooked, their action speed is already debuffed.
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Yah which is kind of the point your advice for the actual survivor being camped is........ what die?
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What do you think you're going to accomplish by arguing in bad faith? You know what's actually being said, so address it.
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My point is that the advice killers give is just work on gens, so since the actually survivor being camped is unable to do that it's not very honest advice. What they really are saying is the camped survivor should just die. I'm poking at them so they have to be honest about their "good advice" for dealing with camping
Or to put it another way the convo goes like this.
"I hate being camped what can I do",
"Do gens"
"Um I can't I'm being camped"
"Your asking for advice in bad faith obviously I meant screw you die, you deserve to die becuase you got camped. I didn't say that though becuae I didn't want to be honest about it"
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What they are saying, I firmly believe you know this and are just being purposely obtuse, is that the TEAM should work Generators. Survivors win or lose as a TEAM. If you are being camped, you are tying up the Killer exactly the same as if you were looping him/her around the map. *I do think that IF the Survivor stays on the Hook the entire time (that means all of Stage-1 and Stage-2 without ending either early) that the game should apply them with points and emblem advancement as if they were tying up the Killer in chases. You are, even if unwillingly, doing your team a service.
Again, I cannot repeat this enough times, Survivors are a TEAM and win or lose only as a Team. That means sometimes you sacrifice for them and they sacrifice for you. Playing for yourself alone is detrimental and rarely results in four escapes (almost never). All that aside, you know it isn't cute nor does it impress anyone when you purposely misconstrue the meaning of what people say and play dumb. It is a rhetorical trick and everyone here knows what you are about. We realize it sucks for the person on the hook. That is why we also make suggestions on ways to mitigate your unfun boredom. That is why I'm suggesting a game within a game for that 2nd Stage hooked Survivor, a metaphysical battle with the Entity.
Playing rhetorical games is not constructive. Playing dumb and being obstinate doesn't advance your cause.
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This game has no defined victory condition. If you feel escaping trough the hatch, while everyone was killed, counts as a win, then that is a win for you.
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Survivors aren't a team, same goals and objectives yes but just becuse you both want thr same thing doesn't mean your going to work together. And If you play with others outside a swf you'll find that's pretty evident
If you were awarded points based on the number if survivors who rscspe then you could argur it's a team game but as it currently is, it's not.
Its no more a team game than Microsofts bing and Googles search engines are on a team, sure they both try and do the same thing, they both even work together from time to time, but if Google earns a billion dollar contract Microsoft doest get to call that a win, just like the survivors goal is to escape full stop. If he doesn't escape he lost.
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Yes. that suck but that how you counter camping. That like facing survivor who pre-drop each pallet and blind you on non mind-game pallet. you either bring lightborn or you take the blind each time or you chase someone else. that suck but that how you deal with them
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Alright then if survivors aint a team let remove the ability to unhook and heal each other. Now people die on first hook and if you get hit that permanent.
You play as a 4 man team then you live with the downside of it.You want to play as an individual where only your skill and perk matter? go play killer.
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If you start balancing things around fun and not around strength, you'd end up nerfing Survivor.
They don't happen often, and there are counters to both.
Just because you don't like the counterplay doesn't mean it isn't there.
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And this mentality is EXACTLY why you are terrible at this game, and why you spend so much time complaining. Has it never occurred to you that this approach might not be the most effective? :)
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Again just becuase your not a team does not mean you can't help each other you have the same goal so often times working together is the best play. Like when large competing companies lobby the government together for a new law or regulation
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Well you tell me the most effective thing I can do when I'm being camped I'm happy to do it as long as it isn't just die and move on.
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I appreciate the response. By the way the question was in reference to you saying Camping is a fun challenge for survivors... I asked if that is the mindset concept, where is the challenge for killers? Unless you don't think killers need a challenge.
Here is the thing too. I don't think anyone is really asking for Camping and Tunneling to be removed. It is an acceptable tactic but in order to become a tactic the opportunity has to be there. I think people just want other/more options.
For me, someone who just got mad because their Ruin got popped and they decide they want to face-camp a survivor isn't a tactic on it's own. It is a situation that the killer is trying to force by refusing to fulfill their objective via an action which has no downsides from a counter perspective (for that hooked survivor).
I also get that survivors could simply "Work on generators" as a way to counter this, but in reality that is not what players want. They don't want to be forced to hold M1 in order to "win".... so this is where I will respond to your winning/losing and still having fun comment. I can honestly say that in the 5.4k hours I have in this game, I have never once had fun in a match where I just held M1 and opened an exit gate. Ever. In fact, I would rather die 1000 matches than have to hold M1 in a game where it's core concept is based around chasing and mind-gaming and generally interacting with the opposing side.
I don't really understand the comparison between a PVE game and a PVP game. You can have a fun mindset, but (again) if standing still infront of a survivor's face at a hook is fun for you then more power to you. Ironically THAT to me feels more like you are playing with against a bot, than an actual player. I want to play the game not set up a tent next to a survivor because that is not what is going to make me a better killer.
Bottom line is Camping and Tunneling to an extent are unacceptable from a balance perspective. So at the very least developers could do is simply apply built-in options for survivors outside of perks, because many till this day complain about seeing DS/UB all the time, well it will stay that way until they aren't necessary perks for the most part.
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I think a BP bonus for killers if they get 12 hooks would be a step in the right direction without needing to touch perks or mechanics
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Well, I have fun as a Survivor playing against Campers. I enjoy the challenge of getting the person off that hook. I don't like leaving anyone behind. So it is a matter of mindset.
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This isn't really a problem IMO.
But they could disable bloodlust gains on recently unhooked survivors on a timer.
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Honestly? Just remain calm, watch the game and stretch the hooks as long as possible That gives your team the most time to do things, which includes perhaps making a rescue. You can take Deliverance too, if you are the kind of person who usually makes a rescue early and thus guarantee you can jump off the hook the second that camper turns his/her back even for a second. You can likewise stack up Perks and Add-on(s) and Offerings which increase your odds of getting yourself off the hook. Slippery Meat, some Ace Perks... Jars of Salty Lips... that kind of thing.
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People are missing the point. If everyone just starts using camping and tunnelling as their main strategy this game will die VERY quickly.
It just makes the game incredibly boring for the majority of players who are maybe in a duo or SoloQ.
it’s not about whether it’s fair or legitimate or anything like that… it’s more that if it continues to increase in the direction it’s going then people will stop playing the game…. Because it’s basically a coin flip on whether you’re the lucky or unlucky one who actually gets to do anything all game or just stay on a hook - add the queue times and you could be playing 1 enjoyable game every 30 minutes! - that’s not sustainable.
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So firsr js the issue if getting deliverance to work I front of a camper becuase the first one being camped is not going to charge deliverance as your team is doing gens waiting for you to die.
But even if you just take your chance and manage to get off the hook while facing a camper, you get of the hook just to be downed right then and there. There is a brief animation where you are ubhooking and landing that you are effectively stuck in place and bam your downed again. Then there's waiting on the ground till ds expires and back you go. You can crawl in circles and watch your teammates do gens from a different view but your still just waiting.
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I like the challenge of playing against good players who aren't just standing at a hook. Especially because like I said before I play a ton of killer too and I know how easy it is to just sit still by a hook. I like challenge on both sides.
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People are missing the point. If everyone just starts using camping and tunnelling as their main strategy this game will die VERY quickly.
It's been 5 years. That point has been made for 5 years. The game has only grown. Probably because killers don't like camping any more than survivors like to be camped. However, because survivors make it worthwhile for killers, they choose the most efficient tactic.
As for "tunneling", I never got this complaint. Most survivors say the fun part of the game is being chased and abhor being told to work on gens (because holding M1 is boring), but if the killer chases them too much, they complain. You have to understand, the killer is not there for your convenience. He's not a busboy you ring up to give you a chase when you want it and then leave you alone when you don't (which, for the record, is also an inappropriate way to treat a busboy). He's a player, just like you, and therefore has his own game to think about.
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There are two types of people, and I'm guessing you are a "the glass is half empty" type. Whenever anyone gives you suggestions or advice, you immediately start to argue and say "that won't work." Whereas sometimes I give (or see others) give advice and see the person say, "thanks, I'll give that a try." They are clearly going to try it before they knock it. We can offer you help until we are blue in the face; if you have decided nothing can be done, you are RIGHT and have made your problem a self-fulfilling prophecy. And again, you have ONLY yourself to blame.
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The problem seems to be you think you suggestion was so revolutionary that ni one thought of it before. I'm telling you what happens when you try it becuase I have tried it and yhats what happens.
Your suggestion doesn't work, it's not a bad suggestion like I said tried it myself becusse it thought it would work too. It doesn't though
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And I (and others) keep telling you that BASICS matter. If you can't make the advice from me (or others) work it isn't because we are giving you bad advice. The tactics and methods you have been given by a lot of very good Players (some far better than me) are golden. The problem is your expectations. It takes thousands of hours to truly become good at this game. Nothing will replace time in grade.
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I'm experiencing the opposite, I just wanna play killer... 😓
I promise I won't tunnel or camp.
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