The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!

Peanits said:

Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.

Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.

Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.

Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.

The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.

The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.

In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.

4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

@DarkWo1f997 said:
Why doesn’t the bleed timer start at 50% every time deep wounds is inflicted until that survivor heals all the way from injured? 

My idea goes a similar way.
The timer should stay the SAME where it stopped after the mending, until the victim got healed up completely.
So staying in injured state is not an option.
Only after fully healed the timer starts with a full bar again if deep wounds gets applies anew.

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

@GodDamn_Angela said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Survivors being able to stop the timer, and the timer not decreasing while in a chase kind of counters the idea of a "delated inst down Killer" so no one with any skill is going to be downed by DW.

So why make his power play peek-a-boo with the survivors

@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.

I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.

1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.

2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.

Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.

However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.

Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.
You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.

However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.

@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie said:

Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.

I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.

1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.

2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.



Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.

However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.

Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.

You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.

However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.

To be fair if the Legion DW'd you then attacks you again with Frenzy, you can still loop the Legion for 40 seconds before going down (assuming my Frenzy suggestions were implemented to the game). Those 40 seconds can be used to complete half of a generator per survivor so if you do go down because the Legion chased you till your timer expired, at least you'll know the Legion wasted a lot of time. My changes makes him better at stalling the game while being like the Pig where you can catch them mending and down them. If they run away then their timer will still decrease since my changes will not stop or slow the timer during a chase. Basically, if you go and tag multiple survivors then you're increasing your chances of catching a survivor off guard and downing them.

That is fair to have two different timers, both because there are mechanical differences but most certainly also because that if you're DW'ed while injured you cannot mend yourself completely, which is obviously quite different from being able to mend yourself. There were a reason why I didn't put a specific value on the timers, namely because they were meant to be relative to what you're suggesting value wise, or what a dev would for that matter.

So the slightly longer than normal timer were to compensate for the fact the the time would be going down while chasing, albeit slightly slower. Where the second timer would have to be longer than the one if you had been healthy when the DW was applied, to compesate for the fact that cannot completely mend yourself. So I weren't saying it should be 60 seconds, that was your initial value, what I'm suggesting value-wise is relative what you're suggesting. So if the first DW timer normally is 25 seconds, then maybe make it 30s (increase by 20% from the base of 25s), and make the second DW timer 40 seconds (increase by 60% from the base of 25s). I think that seems reasonable.

Also I don't know if you saw the recent dev stream were @Janick mentioned that one of the changes in the next patch would be, if one were applied DW while being injured it would start at 20s rather than at 25s.

One thing I think might be a good idea to change as well, would be to change when the slightly slower bleeding occurs, from being in a chase to when being within the terror radius. The reason being that currently what we see legion do is this: 1-First Apply DW, then follow up with a second DW strike, then break from chase to see if it's possible to apply it to someone else nearby, if so then do the above, but then return to the first victim to DW strike them again which resets their mending progress and then breaks chase and follows until the victim goes down or does a final DW strike. So changing it from the when chasing to being within the terror radius would make legion not being able to exploit just breaking chase to have the bleed begin at full speed, so that legion actually needs distance him/herself from the victim to achieve that.

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

"Delayed Instadown"

Not trying to be rude in any way, but there's a bit of a problem with that statement.

I agree, no killer should from a baseline perspective be able to instantly down anyone.
Because if you consider it, every killer who has the capability to instantly down either has to use very rare or ultra rare addons or have to put in a great deal of effort for it.