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We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Comments
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From the sound of it its better to just do it now if you want add ons because the blood webs are going to go from small to big which means you're getting far more junk instead of rare add ons.
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"...will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten"
^^^ and we all know it never works out that way. The Entity is a crafty swindler that causes me no end of grief. It is good to see you gave them the benefit of the doubt in your calculations, though.
Is it possible that BHVR meant to say we would 'only grind 75% as much' instead of saying 'grind will be reduced by 75%'? There is a big difference and I suspect the former is much closer to the truth.
The only unknown factor is that maybe they will offer 30k to 80k bloodpoints for each matchmaking bonus. Then I would be onboard.
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New players are gonna get disguested when they realise how much they have to grind. Now at least they are somehow appeased the moment they notice BBQ/WGLF exist. After changes it's gonna get really annoying
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BBQ not giving more BPs anymore is the not problem. The whole incoming bloodweb rework is.
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I'm going to ask a dumb question, so bear with me.
Obviously tier 3 perks are best, but are they 100% necessary?
In some cases the differences between tier 1 and 3 are so different (i.e. Ruin). But some perks the difference is so minute. Some examples;
Boon: Shadow Step (2s difference after leaving area)
Built to Last (2s difference)
Overcharge: the overall effect of 100-400% is the same, but the immediate regression of a failed skill check is only 2% difference between tier 1 and tier 3.
There are examples of where it's a sizable difference (Bond, Discordant, etc.) But many of the perks have very little difference between tiers 1 and 3.
So if you could unlock tier 1 or 2, you would see a significant decrease in BP grind.
This is of course trading best possible perks for less grind, but having the basic perk without the RNG factor does help a bit.
Idk it's just a thought I had lol
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And the truly insane thing is, removing that aspect of BBQ also removes the anti-camping/tunnelling nature of original BBQ - now there's no incentive to hook each survivor at least once as a priority so camp/tunnel away!
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Not to mention you are forced to get all 3 perks even if you want one perk, effectively doubling cost in that case.
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Exactly. This perk aura reading part gave you an objective immediately after hooking so you don't have to camp. OFC everyone used it for BP - anti-camping incentive was very effective side effect.
So camping-whiners, expect more and more of your favourite activity in the game! Thanks should go to devs.
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It's sad how OP exposed and debunked all myths spreaded by the devs and literally the community forgot about it after not even a week.
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Really. You're exposed.
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The difference being those Perks are made instantly available. You don't have to "find" them in the Blood Web or hope your favorite ones show up first on a new character.
They are already there. Grind over. Just play the game with the build you want and get T2 and T3 as they come when you level your character normally.
New players have not been screwed.
New player buys DBD, reads about the game, discovers which Perks from which characters they want.
So they go about leveling those characters to P1 to unlock the Perks they want.
The mostly likely scenario is that after they've done that is when they will settle on the character they want to play as the most.
Now this character already knows all of the Perks. They don't have to find them in the Bloodweb. They don't have to worry about not getting their preferred Perks first. They know them. They can start just playing the game and using whatever build they want because Tier 1 Perks still work just fine and in most cases the differences between Tiers is marginal.
It doesn't matter if they just want to play one person, it doesn't matter if they don't already own the game and pick it up new after this update.
It's a reduced grind.
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It really is sad. But it’s clear that BHVR doesn’t actually want to recude the grind. These changes are really just a bait-and-switch to make people shut up about the grind.
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Certainly reduces the grind for existing players.
Also OPs math was terrible and didn't take loads of obvious factors into account.
The biggest issue with the new system is getting all perks on one character. That will take longer, since spending 1.5m bp for a prestige to get Tier 1 perks for free is more expensive than getting to 40 then unlocking.
But getting all perks on all characters? Not even remotely close to how it was before. Far, far better. Also no more nonsense about prestige or no prestige.
Also, survivors will probably get far more BP overall with the queue bonus and increased caps. And though BBQ bonus is gone, plenty of killers can max out 2 or even 3 categories and really take huge advantage of BP offerings now.
It's good. You'll see.
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It does. But for me it's only going to decrease the grind by like 2.5 percent. Not a huge deal for me. Future grinds will be lessened quite a bit though :)
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Grind isn't reduced and OP mathematically has proven that.
grind WOULD be reduced IF the devs implemented changes they've been talking about WITHOUT touching BBQ.
Running the game in the current and future state without BBQ/WGLF makes the grind unbearable for anyone who wants to run couple builds on couple characters within reasonable amount of time.
In the current state we have an ability to reduce the grind by wasting one perk slot, after the patch we will not have such a possibility. The problem is the devs noticed a real issue being binding bonus BP to perks and how bad the grind is. Unfortunately the devs did not realize that it is THE GRIND what forces us to run these perks. So they generously released us from the constraint of running bonus BP perks by removing them, without actually reducing the grind... Thanks devs. You're trully magnificent
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Now that the cost to prestige is down from 50k to 20k, I wonder how that will affect the overall numbers?
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I think they proved that when they introduced the Prestige Toll. Introducing a new cost when you're stated intent is to reduce the grind comes off as contradictory to me.
Re: New Players I'm not sure there's a way to fix that without overhauling the bloodpoint system entirely. I'm not against that idea, but don't see it as particularly likely.
Even so, I think the new system is better, whatever the numbers say. I think the bulk of the grind is reduced by having much less "Bloodweb Gambling", or going through X number of Bloodwebs to get the perks you've unlocked on Y characters. For 10 more levels you get the perks on everyone at tier 1. That's a time saver even if you just wanted the perks on one person. From there, the player can decide to continue to grind the character or unlock the next set of perks.
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I have resolved that I am taking a wait-and-see approach.
As a killer main, I am forced to grind to get anything worth playing. It is quite a toll.
However, I do not think BHVR is sinister in their planned changes. Does it miss the mark in some places? Yes. At the same time, I really won't know until I see it.
BHVR has bean counters like any for-profit company and have health-of-business to think about. Unfortunately, they tend to win against those in the company advocating for quality of life for the customers.
We will see how it all shakes out.
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If you want to know why you're wrong, here's why.
First, stop overcomplicating 1-50 and measure average BP cost instead. I tracked BP costs on 10 survivors or so from level 1 to level 50, and the cost averaged 1400k. But this was with neglecting perks to rush them to P3. With perks, I've found it costs around 1450k to go from L1 to L50 while getting all perks.
Like you showed, it costs 51k avg for a L50 web. That's 25500 BP per perk tier.
To get all perks on one character, it costs 1450 to get to 50, then you still need 229 perk tiers, which is 25500*229. This is being generous since the last few levels cost a lot. About 7.29m.
With the new system, your grind ends omce you have P3 on every killer. Obviously, you should prestige every killer to P1, to ensure you don't lose perk tiers while leveling.
But the absolute worst case is P3 all killers. And that will cost 1521k pet killer, since you now have to go through a bloodweb at 50 + 20k for a prestige. 4.56m per killer.
That's 38% less BP as it stands now. But the new system will become better the more characters are added. How about 32 killers instead of 28?
Ca 8.2m per killer with the old system. 4.56m with the new.
36 killers? 9.12m old, 4.56 new.
Now we will get increased BP caps and role bonuses as well. This also means that BP offerings now give back more than before, especially if you run BP boosting perks to max out categories. Notable exceptions are sacrifice and brutality, most killers can't max these. But plenty of killers can easily max chase and deviousness with distressing + beast of prey.
For survivor, WGLF stacks are far, far less reliable than role queue bonuses, and I'd bet money on that the average survivor will make quite a lot more BP after the update.
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New players absolutely have been screwed.
Old System
All 3 Teachables Unlocked by Lvl 40
New System
Zero Teachables Unlocked until Lvl 50
Tell me how the new system is better?
Previously, one could even stop investing in a character at Lvl 30, if they only cared about the first teachable.
The only people this "grind reduction" helps are those looking to P3 every character and have every perk available on all characters. This new system screws those who just bought the game and want flexibility in their builds.
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Been saying this for AGES! Reduce the bloody cost. Whats so hard?
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...what? The reason I'm wrong is because I "overcomplicated" levels by breaking them down into groups to give more accuracy, rather than just assigning one average value to the whole thing? So me using more detail makes it incorrect?
And looking thru your math, it looks like you end up agreeing with me, at least in the general sense, on the numbers for right now. 38% grind reduction is ballpark what I got. Yes, it gets better as time goes on, I understand that aspect. But, to be honest, I really don't care that much if the grind goes all the way up to a 50% reduction by 2028, because it's being touted as a grind reduction right now. 36 killers is 2 full years from now, if they even stick to their current 4 a year schedule. Anyone who cares about a grind reduction right now will have either stopped caring about it, or have long since moved on.
"Now we will get increased BP caps and role bonuses as well. This also means that BP offerings now give back more than before, especially if you run BP boosting perks to max out categories. Notable exceptions are sacrifice and brutality, most killers can't max these. But plenty of killers can easily max chase and deviousness with distressing + beast of prey.
For survivor, WGLF stacks are far, far less reliable than role queue bonuses, and I'd bet money on that the average survivor will make quite a lot more BP after the update."
The increased cap only goes up to 10k, and point values for actions weren't changed (outside of escaping, which was increased to 7k in the bugfix patch). So the only way you see a benefit from the prior system is if you go over 8k, as otherwise the amount you get is the exact same as the prior patch. And the most increase you can get is 25%, if you max out the category. So in the best case scenario, your raw game total post patch would come out to if you had gotten a single stack of BBQ/WGLF. If you include double BP offerings in the mix, that bumps it to two stacks. But if you're getting a perfect 40k game, its impossible to not have 4 stacks of BBQ, and 95% of the time you're gonna have at least 2 stacks of WGLF to max out altruism. So it ends up being a moot point anyway: any benefit you get from the higher BP cap, in the same game in the old system, you would have gotten significantly more reward anyway.
And role queue will be nice, but I think it is far far less reliable than you expect it is. The devs have stated multiple times that the 100% role bonus will not be the norm, and will only be that high when the queues are drastically imbalanced. I fully expect the bonuses to be more in the range of 25-50% which, while nice, does not make up the difference.
Post edited by KnotEnthusiast on1 -
Old system meant you could start seeing them once unlocked at level 40
New system all character have the perk at tier one at level 50
Those 10 extra levels will very quickly become benificial if you play multiple characters
And if you are only playing one, did you really have a grind to begin with? Reducing the grind does not equal completely getting rid of any progression system whatsoever.
Maxing out one character wasen't hard before the change and the change didn't make it that much harder
Even survivors have character specific daillies or tomes who are a lot easier now you actually have perks on them without investing that hard
Whatever the math is. This change is miles better then it was before. So happy that now when there is a tome for a survivor you don't see a ton of that survivor without any decent perk what so ever
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You see the issue is that getting to that Level 50 is harder due to much lower BP gain.
Also the attitude of "not much grind to begin with" is stupid. That's literally the survivor grind. Any new player will go through that and very few survivor players unlock all perks on everyone.
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It increases the best case percentage reduction from 45 to 46%. BHVR has saved the day once again.
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If you go through the numbers there is not that much lower bp gain then before
The stack perks only affected bp gained in a match. Daillies, archives, login bonuses, rank rewards, offerings, etc... weren't affected by it.
Double true for survivors as getting max stacks of wglf was a lot harder then bbq
Especially with how they increased the cap per catogory to 10k it really isn't that big a difference anymore.
The community in general always overvaluated the stack perks. They did not do as much as people thought they did
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they..doubled your BP gain..
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I don't know about you, but I actually got most of my bloodpoints from playing the game, rather than the rewards. A single 30k daily or 50k login reward were both still less than my average single game with BBQ, not even counting BP offerings.
And as I said in a prior post, the cap increase to 10k is only a 25% total increase, and it didn't increase any action point rewards (except survival), so the only way you get a benefit from it is if you go over 8k, or else it is exactly the same as before. And if you do fully get the 25% total point increase, you would have gotten 4 stacks of BBQ guaranteed (I still don't even think with 12 hooks you can get 10k anyway), and almost definitely would have gotten at least the 2 stacks of WGLF needed to match the point increase with a BP offering by maxing altruism.
And even outside of that, I don't quite understand the point you're making. Dailies and login rewards are exactly the same as they were, so you're still just net losing the BP bonus from perks. That's just a significant net loss in BP gain if you used the perks, no matter how you slice it.
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You're downplaying the time sink required to reach Level 50.
It undeniably takes longer to unlock every perk now, than it did before the update. Especially for those playing at this time without any BP bonuses. Players who already had every perk unlocked are just running victory laps, and do not need their grind reduced as much as those who are just starting out.
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They doubled your bp earned in a match
Play 3 matches
25k on avarage per match means 75k earned
Bbq earned 75k
You did a dailly for 30k
You completed 2 archive challenges one 25k and one 35k
In one of the matches you used a pudding for 25k
265k bp earned
28% was from bbq
Quite a chunk but nowhere near doubled
That's without rank rewards, any login bonusses and only a single offering. Survivors throwing in bps or cakes and the amount bbq does shrinks very fast. The higher end of archives give 50-60k
A lot of the bp we earn is outside of the match. Bbq didn't affect that
There is a dailly login bonus going on now for 50k. That's 2 avarage matches worth of bbq vallue jusy for login in
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Bit of a Yes And No here.
Yes it takes longer to unlock perks, but once unlocked everyone gets them, immediately and automatically, no bloodwebs required.
From there you have the choice to continue grinding the owner of the perks for higher levels on everyone, or grinding the character(s) you want to use the perks with so they have the higher levels.
At worst it's a shift in that the bloodpoints you would spend hoping the perk(s) show up on your character(s) of choice are instead spent on the perks' owner to unlock them, but guaranteeing that, once unlocked, your character(s) will have them.
Speaking for myself, that reduction in "bloodweb gambling" is where you see the reduction in the grind.
I honestly don't think there's a way to fix the grind for anyone just starting out without overhauling the system from scratch. I'm not against that, but given what's been done already I don't see it as likely. At this point it's a bit of the Nature of the Beast in that DBD is so large a grind is inevitable for anyone joining late.
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Okay, but it still gave you double BP per match which saves a lot in the long term. If they crank up log in events and codes, it will be one thing, but I doubt we will get a dramatic increase in those. Like, I do not randomly use pudding and my archives are done, so your weird and arbitrary hypothetical is more or less completely useless.
The reality is that I now HAVE to use a BP boost to get what I once had and I STILL lose the opportunity cost (which objectively makes the grind worse). All for what? To have a single percentage "better" grind over the long term (without items)? We had to wait years for this "improvement?" Nah. I am not going to pretend to be grateful.
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Dailies, logins, Tome challenges, that stuff is limited.
I used BBQ/WGLF every match. Any day when I played, I'd make a couple hundred thousand at least just from the stacks. Not to mention, beyond the BP, it felt rewarding. I had a goal that wasn't just "kill" or "escape." It was something I could do every match and it made my matches more enjoyable.
I played during the Double Rift Fragment event every day. My BP gains felt awful. I completed the newest Tome level 1, did Dailies, collected every login bonus, but not having the BBQ/WGLF stacks meant my earnings were half of what they usually are. I earn maybe 2k to 4k more in a match due to the raised caps, but that in no way makes up for it not being doubled.
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That's also something i think people are overplaying a bit.
You don't need every single thing unlocked in DbD. The mayority of the perks are meme/ for fun.
How long would it take to get the top 10 non killer specific meta perks on every single killer in the old version vs the new version?
Cause once you have that all the perks for fun is something you can casually work towards
And before you bust out a calculator to answer that question let me stop you to think about the madness it would be to calculate that with the random nature of the old version
Which is another huge point. Even IF the grind was increased overall i would still prefer the new system. Any perk is at max 50 levels away to get on tier 1 on every character.
It's so much more fluid then the old one that i really don't care how much longer it would take to unlock absolutelly everything.
Most new players also don't care about that. They want to play with a specific thing and no longer having to praise rngezus to get it feels great
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I'm having the complete opposite experience. I'm surprised at how steadilly the bp is still coming in without having to sacrifice 1/4th of my build
Ofcourse the more matches you play the more bbq did. If you're someone who plays 10+ matches a day you'll probably feel it a bit more but if you play that much then you will reach the point of having all the perks you want sooner rather then later. With or without bbq
For casual players. I don't think the difference is that big
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Tell me where I said something factually untrue.
There is nothing to overplay.
The grind has been made worse for new players.
I'm not trying to argue what the grind has done for everyone else. The grind has been made worse for new players, and that is a fact.
It is my stance that new players are the ones needing a grind reduction, not the playerbase with 1k+ hours looking to completionist their roster
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Alright, but play 3 more matches, and in each one you get 4 stacks of bbq and score 25k points.
From the game: 75k
BBQ: 75k
Your daily for the day is gone because you already redeemed it, 0.
The next challenge on the tome is 35k, but it requires you to hook 10 unique survivors, so you only get it in your third match. 35k
You ran out of puddings, but a survivor burned a flan in your second game so you still get 25k bonus from that. 25k
So after 6 games, out of 210k, bbq pulled in 75k, or about 35%. Run out of tome challenges? Now its 42%. Various rewards for things like tomes or dailies are great, but they're finite. BBQ was every single game pulling value.
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That's cool for the people who aren't affected and don't care about the removal of BBQ/WGLF stacks. For those who do care, there's nothing to replace it. There are fifty different gen/slowdown perks, a killer can choose which ones like they best. DS got nerfed but a small BT became base kit and OTR got buffed. A lot of stuff got messed with but it still exists in some manner within the game. Except the stacks. The stacks are just gone.
So, for those of us who used them as a nice little goal that rewarded us with BP, whether we needed the BP or not, it's just gone. And any survivor or killer who wants items, add-ons, or offerings rather than perks now has a much bigger slog of a grind to get through with all those useless Bloodwebs at the beginning of a prestige level. I have so many mist offerings I can't use mist offerings mist offerings make my PS4 fans go nuts why are they even still a thing?! sigh.
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If you want the goal there's always Grim Embrace, which works on the same mechanic and gives you a reward for hitting the goal in-match.
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I don't really consider gen slowdown a reward. I ran Deadlock during the Double Rift Fragment event, but I already took it back off. Slowdown just... I dunno, I don't like it. It seems to be a personal preference. My loadout is Lightborn, Distressing, and Beast of Prey. PS4 has a lot of perks unlocked but so much is slowdown or location/aura and nothing is anything fun like confetti bursting out of your weapon on a hit for a Brutality BP boost or corpses hanging from hooks when they're not in use just for ambience. Closest thing is Clown's bottle add-on, but Clown's not very fun and the gas from his bottles hurt performance.
On Switch I don't even have many perks unlocked. BBQ was one of the few. It's a total waste to put BP into killers on Switch, the fps and frame drops make the role nearly unplayable. Unrelenting might be worth it, but again, it'd have to be unlocked early; it's general pool so it's total RNG and unlocking perks on killers is still too expensive to be worth going far in the Bloodwebs.
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