What is my incentive to stay in a game with a hook camper or tunneler?
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Yeah, it's better to never unhook anyone.
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Have you played any Killer at all???
1st match:
Singletary most likely knew that an unhook would happen as soon as he got the down (happens to me a lot) so going back to the hook after getting the down to see if he couldn't get the savior (optimistic mindset) seems like a good all… having a Hook a one Survivor, downed another one and knowing that the savior is close to the hook means that only 1 Survivor is doing a Gen (that's a lot of pressure to have)
The pressure generated by a hook is like having 3 Gens done… Slugs like 2… Injured Survivor like 1 (or like half a Gen)
2nd match:
Hooks are apart of a much bigger issue… you reap what you sow
That being said… you going for a save knowing that the Killer is going to hook as close as possible (cause wiggling off the Killer takes away pressure… just look at the 1st match as an example) makes it a bad play (from the Killers POV)
So in conclusion…
1- Play some Killer games
2- Play the situation you are giving and not think about "Killer is Camping and Tunneling all the time"
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I do agree that nowadays killers don't play honorably and the survivors definitely feel much weaker now.
In a perfect world none of the sides would be in a power trip but the best we can hope is to close the gap between the two as much as we can.
About the hooks being next to each other I think an amazing solution to that would be: spread the hooks and now they don't break when you sacrifice
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The first one seems not that bad. The problem seems to be your mindset.
If you give up just because the killer slugs for some pressure, then I don't know what to tell you…
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Your also staying for your team maybe???
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I really hope this mentality will cease to exist. The developers are not "insert role" - sided. Both sides get nerfed and buffed.
If someone solely plays one role, their mindset can become very focused on the well being of this one role alone, antagonizing the other role in the process.
Buffs and nerfs in this game are weird. They mostly don't come in slight or well thought out patches but with a sledge hammer, deleting the problem in an instant. Look at ultimate weapon or overcharge. Both of these perks are / will vanish from load outs due to the nerfs being too severe. Healing also got the sledge hammer until the community called out the devs for this decision. Similarly to how they wanted to erase 40s off the Pigs timer.
It goes both ways, buffs are also sometimes horrendous. Look at twins for example. How did they not see, that these changes would create an unbeatable chasing monster? One can't be that oblivious. How did mft and eruption remain in the states they had been for that long???
The game favour's no side except the one that brings the stronger stuff.
The devs favour no side.
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I love posts like this. Its pure copeium.
Over 2 to 3 ish years ago it was too hot a topic to say out loud but so many things on the suv side of the game were just broken and now we have players trying to adapt to a life post-Small PP build/COH/Old DH/post-conspicuous action and they are having to come to the reality they just are not very good players.
The only part of this post I can agree with is when OP lists "an increase in silent killers, an increase in anti-loop killers, an increase in teleporting killers" as a bad thing because most of the new killers have bloated kits and also suck to play against.
but generally, survivors don't need anything to be stronger or even at the level of what they previously had available to them. It would be nice to see more perks like that are never used be brought up to usability but that's it.
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im just saying if you dont like the game dont play it which you seem to have not figured out :P
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nobody was even camping/ tunneling in the second game, you just played badly, got upset and quit.
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To help other survivors win, that is
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I have a feeling that these lack some context actually. In your first game how long exactly did it take for ada to get downed and for Leon to be saved at the perfect time to be teleported to and checked? Did the singularity even chase the Leon or did he take his chances with the unhooker? Was the endurance hit used? When during all this were you personally placed on a hook? All questions that don't have answers based on your description but we know it was enough to make you die on hook so I'll give it to you.
For the second game again how long exactly did it take to get to the Leon before haddie was taken down? Were you working on a gen? Was the other person? Were you both on the same gen? Did you try baiting the hook save to get the unknown to either miss an m1 or a spit? There are honestly a lot of things left to interpretation here.
Solo q is honestly the worst experience in dbd aside from being a killer vs a 4 man 50k hour swf but what you are describing and trying to argue lacks a lot of depth. These plays can't be called as "unfair" or worthy of giving up unless there is more context applied because sometimes it's a really unfair situation, but it can also be an issue on how the survivors handle that scenario since the game has a HUGE snowball effect unlike any I've ever seen.
In short, your question cannot be answered accurately without more information.
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Basic empathy? The human condition?
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Yeah it only took them ages to remove something they called a bug, better late than never isn't cause for celebration when the damage has already been done.
Citing the HUD makes no sense here, while it is unequivocally a good change, it's also almost been a year+ (?) since it's been added.
Killer perk nerfs are largely irrelevant because you aren't facing the same perks every game, basekit nerfs are a lot more significant and guess which side gets basekit nerfs more?
There's also the fact that everytime a killer perk gets nerfed it either gets huge compensation (Pain Res) or a similar perk gets buffed and replaces it (Pop/GE.)
Meanwhile survivor perks like Dead Hard and MFT got absolutely trashed and nothing has replaced them, Background Player is definitely an outlier.
The three gen change was only a nerf insofar as you cannot textbook three gen anymore, but you can definitely proxy 3-gen and killer's got a big buff to gen kicking + the removal of gen tapping. Which means the gen change was a survivor nerf somehow.
SM did not get nerfed purely because of 'survivor complaints,' she got reworked twice because her design is terrible and they're too stubborn to let go of it, SM is actually one of the few times I've seen this community unite on an issue.
You might be okay with half-baked efforts to address problems but it's clear the problems persist, and this is not a case of people be insatiable and more that the gameplay devs have yet to put any serious effort into their changes, so I don't believe they deserve any praise (obviously dont deserve abuse either) until some serious changes are made to make the game better for survivors.
The bar needs to be higher imo.
Post edited by WolfyWood on1 -
If someone is already dead via tunneling or camping, they're gonna leave as well. Nobody wants to waste time anymore.
Also, that's still a moral obligation, which I pointed out. That's not really an incentive.
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For a lot of dbd players, empathy is just the name of a claudette perk and nothing more
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Yup, different games.
Edit - This is post 69....nice!
Post edited by Raccoon on0 -
You would do well to remember that online gaming is a social contract
Well, neither side seems to care, so why should I? Sounds like too much work for little to no benefits for myself.
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Well, I am just allergic to "opposite of smart" statements.
Survivor crying that only that side gets nerfs, which clearly is quite the opposite, is just exactly that. So I am going to call them out on it.
It doesn't really help that I am against most of those nerfs tho…
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Well, from my experience survivors don't really appreciate, when killer plays nice., quite the opposite. So why bother?
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....that was kinda clean not gonna lie
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Im talking about you being the first to give up.
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Tbh, I'm stealing it.
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I wish I could like this comment a thousand times over. Very clever!
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How are the forums not killer sided when almost every new thread is "As killer, X" or "survivors have too much Y." On top of that, when anyone has an opinion that would favor survivor, at least 10 killer mains come out of the woodwork to shoot it down. That's about as killer sided as you can get while still allowing survivor players on the forums.
Boons are not OP lol.
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Rest assured that Singularity you encountered was NOT me.
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🤣🤣 can't be mad at that.
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Why are you talking about that when the OP is asking what incentive there is to stay in a game where the Killer is tunneling or camping?
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So you take it out on the next group of survivors because the previous ones didn't express sufficient gratitude? You can generally win without tunneling or camping every game. It's an unranked public match.
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I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for hug tech. A bug like that isn’t as simple as fixing a line of code. It would require completely reworking how his entire collision system works (along with some possible map collision changes). Yes it should have come earlier but I can understand why it wasn’t an immediate fix.
Along with that, delayed fixes like that aren’t exclusive to the survivor side. It took 6 years for them to nerf Dead Hard. It took years to nerf OoO because they refused to admit it was broken. They admitted they had a back up plan for MFT if it become problematic yet it still took months to address it.
“Killer perk nerfs are irrelevant because you aren’t facing the same perks every game”
This logic makes no sense and just completely invalidates everything you said. You don’t face the same killers every game so nerfing them is irrelevant. You don’t face the same survivor perks every game so their nerfs were irrelevant. You don’t face the same perks so their buffs are irrelevant. Ultimate Weapon was the talk of these forums for months and nerfing it shows they listened. Completely disregarding that just to fit your narrative is completely misleading.
If by base kit nerfs you want the killer role as a whole nerfed, then that’s not a good idea. Nerfing the entire killer role would just make killers like Trapper and Freddy weaker while not affecting high tier killers like Nurse as much. Survivors get base kit nerfs more because there is only one “character” in it, so you can’t just nerf them individually like killers.
”Survivor perks like Dead Hard and MFT are trashed”
Dead Hard nerf was over a year ago. How does bringing up the HUD here make no sense but Dead Hard does? Besides, Dead Hard isn’t “trashed”, it’s still a good perk it’s just not broken. You even said that perk nerfs are irrelevant so I don’t understand how you can disregard UW nerfs but use Dead Hard as an example of them not listening. (I do agree MFT is trash though. It should have received the effect Buckle Up has and then give Buckle Up something else). We shouldn’t be replacing Dead Hard and MFT. They were nerfed because they were overpowered and unhealthy. No perk should ever be close to that level.
I agree that killers benefitted from anti 3 gen, but they still listened and made it harder to do. They didn’t want to remove it, it still needs to exist to some extent, they just wanted to remove the hard core 3 gens which they have for the most part. I agree they could still do more, but it showing that they listen.
Skull Merchant was absolutely because of the survivor perspective. Killers might have agreed she sucked, but that was that she sucked from a survivor perspective. The killers didn’t have any issue playing against her because they can’t unless they are a survivor. She was reworked to be better for survivors.
I agree that they need to implement changes faster and that there is still a lot to address, but to say they aren’t listening is just a lie. There are issues on both sides that need to be addressed, and there are issues on both sides that just get a half-assed fix. They don’t treat one side better than the other, they aren’t ignoring survivors and gigabuffing killers because they hate them and want to kill the game. Stop with this mentality that they are ignoring survivors when they aren’t.
Rather than argue about which side gets more love, we should just work together to get them to implement changes faster for BOTH sides. Going the Us vs Them route just makes it more difficult.
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Every public match in this game is ranked by default, even if we don't see our "ranks". The only way to get an unranked match right now is playing in custom games.
Also, it is a PvP game. It is not the job of the other team to make the game fun for you, but to win the match.
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There is none. If you are not enjoying a game, or do not find it fun to play against sweaty tactics from the killer, there is zero reason for you to stay in a match when you can attempt and let go on hook then go next. There are disincentives, like "think of the teammates" and "you're giving the killer what they want", but ultimately it is YOUR free time playing this game and you choose how to use it.
That said, regarding the camping and tunneling debate. A lot of clueless people in here thinking an incentive (reward) to not tunnel and camp will make things better. This has been tried and didn't work (see: gen kick meta where killers still tunneled, tunneling with reworked Pain Res and Grim Embrace), and will not work.
Let's keep it simple: hard camping/tunneling with good game sense is the fastest and easiest way to win games, and it will ALWAYS be used so long as it is effective and easy. Even if you provide an incentive/buff better than tunneling/camping to not do these things, which would break the balance of the game, killers would still tunnel and camp as long as it is easy. So in order to stop camping and tunneling, you would need an incentive that is both more effective and easier as a strategy. At that point, killer would be so easy to play, that survivors would never win. So in order for anything to change, a punishment or disincentive to tunnel and camp needs to be implemented.
After that, buffs can and probably should happen since without tunneling and camping a lot of games become much harder to win. But anyone who seriously thinks the solution starts with an incentive is kidding themselves.
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But the first example was the killer slugging for pressure, I see nothing wrong with that. Some singularities slug the whole game, because it makes the killer more effective.
OP gives up as the first one in the situation, which makes no sense to me.
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It doesn't really matter in that scenario though?
If they don't have UB, there's nothing they can do if they're downed. If they DC, then there's a bot, so their team is fine if they somehow recover. If they kill themselves on hook, well, the Killer isn't gonna hook without having all four downed, so the game is over.
Three people downed is, generally, unrecoverable.
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From my experience in letting survivors go, (only getting 8 hooks or someone DC'd early), there are few that will be toxic towards me for "wasting their time". It is rare but does occur.
It's not as rare but uncommon to see "gratitude" but I'm not expecting anything from the survivors for playing the way I wanted.
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This doesn't change the argument though, this just makes the problem way bigger.
In either case, it seems the main advice is to not make a play. Leave them on hook. This is bad gameplay for both the rescuer, and the hooked person. So if survivors are expected to just give up on their gameplay, what reason do they have to play the game?
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Disagree. I am right now doing a knock out experiment on spirit.
Knock out, sloppy, surge and stbfl
I try to slug all before hooking to find out how strong this unhealthy perk is to have a valid opinion on this stupid perk.
Funnily enough, teams are surprisingly good against it. Even without unbreakable.
The game is not unwinnable just because the killer decides to slug one survivor to get sone pressure.
If this isn't about specific examples, then why are they given in the first place.
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I don't see how the Killer "camped and tunneled" in both of OP's scenarios. The first Scenario is literally basic macroplay from a Killer that requires macroplay to excel. The Killer would have been prevented from returning to the hook if OP had an EMP to either remove their infection or disable the pod near the hook.
The second is OP being forced to make a risky play because two players went down within the same vicinity. I would argue the Killer was already making a risky play by hooking the second downed Survivor.
I'm sure there are better scenarios to share about tunneling and camping but this ain't it OP. Both you and your teammates could have played better, and the Killer just capitalized off the mistakes your team made.
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To be fair, that's very different than OP's scenario as we don't know the perks. Singularity is also a better slugger than Spirit due to map presense.
When I tried, maybe in 2020-2022, I found Third Seal to be a better perk for sowing confusion
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Correct, the thing I'm doing is probably much worse, according to the feedback I receive. (End game chat is not that nice...)
I'd be curious, what the Singularity was running, but probably not a slugging build, otherwise they would not have hooked in the first place.
Gonna try third seal next few rounds of the experiment.
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You didn't read: boons WERE OP, I stated "boons needed nerfing" with COH in particular being a big issue. If you think old COH was okay, well I don't think there is any reasoning with you.
I see just as much whining from survivors as I see from killers and the other claim was that BHVR are killer sided, when clearly they are not since the majority of their customers are the typical low kill casual survivor player. This should be obvious by the fact it is an asymmetrical game and pleasing the minority of your player base is just bad business.
As a survivor main of over 4k hours I can say survivors needed nerfing and things like COH were very broken.
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You said "boons needed nerfing." You didn't supply a time frame for this, nor did you say which boons. Circle of healing is the only boon that has ever been strong enough to even be considered of receiving a nerf, and it was nerfed 3 months after its release, and nerfed again a few months after that. That was almost 2 and a half years ago, which is ancient history for this game. I wouldn't generalize "boons" being OP when it was realistically only one boon that was OP and was patched extremely quickly. Boons are rarely seen nowadays because unless you're dedicating at least two survivor builds around them, they require too much random chance to be effective for very little in return.
The customer base is mostly survivor players that's correct, I never claimed otherwise, but that doesn't prevent killers from being the loudest voices on the forums. You didn't read what I said either. Even when a single survivor shares an opinion on the forums, at least 10 killers come to tell them how wrong they are.
DbD is killer sided in every skill level besides the highest MMR with a swf in play. Killers can make 10 times more mistakes and still win, and survivors need to have a massive amount of game sense to even get their chances of survival to 40%. If they truly were targeting the majority of players (survivors), killer would have a max kill rate of 50%.That's not the case. They want killers pushing 3 kills a match with 60%, and that is a fact.
Your hours essentially mean nothing because I cannot deduce your skill from that, if that's what you were trying to do. Hours can really only show how long you've been playing. People can have 10k hours in league of legends and still be stuck in bronze 4. Using those hours effectively is what makes a good player. Anyone can achieve 4k hours, but not everyone wants to put in the effort to improve. I'm not saying that to discredit you, just that saying "I have X hours" without any context doesn't help illustrate your skill level.
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While I completely agree, thats an obligation, not an incentive. An incentive would be "how awesome it would feel to turn a losing match into a 4E" or something like that. Back when ranks were a thing, you could work toward securing a pip even in losing games. While technically still something that could be used, the removal of depipping made it even less of a factor.
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The question of the topic is quite literally
"What is my incentive to stay in a game with a hook camper or tunneler?"And again, I agree with you, I was just pointing out how it doesn't exactly relate to OP's question.
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Absolutely not.
As survivor your goal is to try and survive against the odds. Resetting the game condition for each player just because they got hooked completely undermines the point of the game.
Its akin to just having everyone respawn constantly so no one ever dies and then no one ever has to feel bad or quit because they lost in a manner they didn't like.
Its an attempt make DBD as toothless and as generic a game experience as possible then all the quitters can feel safe and happy.
Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
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1st game, smart play on killers part to block the hook save. Well done to them.
2nd game, killer gets lucky play/survivor error with two close downs. Hooks both near each other and defends that to capitalize on error.
Both games are perfectly good gameplay and no excuse to quit.
OP can't accept gameplay and rage quits. Comes to forum to moan about it and accuse game of being killer sided.
Thread in a nutshell.
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Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
DBD stopped being horror survival a long time ago.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
It's not 'gameplay', it's the avoidance of gameplay. All players playing their cards right, no one interacts with each other from that point on.
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The game didn't change just because you became desensitized to it. Its still very much a survival horror regardless of some players efforts to undermine that.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay.
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You'll have to keep me updated on how it goes
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You can generally win without tunneling or camping every game
every? no
most? yes
I always adapt based on how survivors play. I consider that normal.
If survivors either annoyed me, were efficient at gens, or first chase was bad, then I will tunnel someone out sooner or later.
If you want to win, then it's usually good idea to take someone out usually around 2 gens left.
But that doesn't change, that right now in DBD, there is absolutely no logical reason to focus new survivors, unless you use perk for it.
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The devs never called them valid gameplay, they called them valid strategies. Both diminish gameplay, camping moreso than tunnelling.
The devs are also not the be-all-end-all, they've been wrong on plenty of occasions.
It's not me being desensitised to it, it's the game's design flow too. There's no scary moments that belong to the horror-survival genre. Nothing about DBD qualifies it to be horror survival. Elements that it did have, have been pared down over time.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
That's why I specified 'when everyone plays their cards right'. Sitting under a hook waiting for a person to die results in you as killer not doing anything, the person on hook not doing anything, and the survivors only getting to hold M1 on gens. It's death of gameplay.
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