So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
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Im not sure if I glossed over it or not but did you mention anything about the number of parts you can have on you?
Edit: nvm I reread it. I feel like this could fix the whole 3v1 disadvantage by allowing surviviors to gather parts to make up for the loss of a player and can really tip a momentum change for surviviors. However I think this makes it slightly difficult for killers since they will have to check 3 more locations. I also think that parts would decrease great skill check sizes slightly for every part installed or increase skill check oddswand difficulty when awake (so to not effect Freddy for the Freddy mains out there.)3 -
@XavierBoah17 said:
Im not sure if I glossed over it or not but did you mention anything about the number of parts you can have on you?Nope didn't mention it. They have the same structure as an item: You can only hold 1 at a time. The only difference is that they are destroyed upon being dropped.(whether that's you pressing drop or whether Franklins Demise forces it out of your hands).
Applying a part is also done by holding the item button.0 -
Yeah TL;DR pls5
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Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
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Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.0
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@Vietfox said:
Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.The notification is not a sound notification. It's just a simple visual representation on how many parts are installed, similar to how generator progression is visualised.
Basically you can "see" the parts attached to the generator.
Maybe that part was so obvious that it will confuse more people then that it will ensure xD0 -
@Vietfox said:
Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.I think he meant that the generator model would be altered in some way to show that the generator had an additional part, but the killer would still have to be physically there, observing the generator, to see it.
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@Orion said:
@Vietfox said:
Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.I think he meant that the generator model would be altered in some way to show that the generator had an additional part, but the killer would still have to be physically there, observing the generator, to see it.
That's it (:
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So you mean that killer wouldn't know in what generator are those parts installed? Works for me.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Vietfox said:
Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.The notification is not a sound notification. It's just a simple visual representation on how many parts are installed, similar to how generator progression is visualised.
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Why go through the extra hassle of installing a part when a generator still only takes 80 seconds to repair without any parts?
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Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.2
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@se05239 said:
Why go through the extra hassle of installing a part when a generator still only takes 80 seconds to repair without any parts?Because you'll still be able to progress through the late-game (as in when people are dead).
If you think the Hatch will be as available as before, then guess again >:)0 -
Ok ok, no problem with that. It's like when the killer knows gens progress just by hearing them.@Orion said:@Vietfox said:
Assuming i understood that well i would remove the notification system when installing a "part", that sounds like a free notification perk to me.I think he meant that the generator model would be altered in some way to show that the generator had an additional part, but the killer would still have to be physically there, observing the generator, to see it.
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Can the killer destroy the generator?
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@se05239 said:
Why go through the extra hassle of installing a part when a generator still only takes 80 seconds to repair without any parts?That is the problem with any and all optional objectives. To make them worthwhile, you'd also have to make them absurdly overpowered. That's why I'd prefer something like this:
@JanTheMan said:
Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.If they're not forced to do it, or if it's not absurdly overpowered, then they won't do it.
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@Sinner said:
Can the killer destroy the generator?Not the parts. The killer can still kick the generator when it has progression. The multiplier that the Parts give also multiply progression.
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I like this idea! Also, did you make the picture? It looks really nice.
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@fluffybunny said:
I like this idea! Also, did you make the picture? It looks really nice.Edited in Gimp (:
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I like the concept, but I think it should be the main objective and not a secondary objective.
Im a SWF player, I dont play solo no more and my question is: How does this stop me and my team from just rushing anyway? I mean... Yh, you could go around crafting parts but you dont have to, it's the same problem with totems, you can clean them or you can just remember those totem spots and wait until the endgame to clean them IF the killer has NOED.
Just make it the main objective. Make It so that you have to install a part to start repairing a gen, adding those 15+ seconds of crafting, moving and installing is more that enough.
Edit:
Also want to add the fact that making It the main objective would make It easier for the killer to spot survivors through the map, therefore survivors should start playing more stealthy.3 -
@JanTheMan said:
Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.The problem with that is it removes choice and thus some of the excitement.
I wouldn't ever make a part MANDATED. There is a better (less obvious) solution that requires no structural change:
Bump up the generator time + change ratio's between multipliers.
Let's say we make gen-time 100 seconds. But simultaneously we also make the first 1(/2) parts significantly more beneficial, thus never forcing anything upon people, yet making the Part system part of the meta.
The devil is in the Details (:
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@JanTheMan said:
Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.The problem with that is it removes choice and thus some of the excitement.
I wouldn't ever make a part MANDATED. There is a better (less obvious) solution that requires no structural change:
Bump up the generator time + change ratio's between multipliers.
Let's say we make gen-time 100 seconds. But simultaneously we also make the first 1(/2) parts significantly more beneficial, thus never forcing anything upon people, yet making the part system part of the meta.
Base generator repair time is already at the maximum tolerable limit (and maybe a touch beyond that). Effectively forcing people to get these parts by making the alternative much, much worse, is worse than just forcing them to get these parts.
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Base generator repair time is already at the maximum tolerable limit (and maybe a touch beyond that). Effectively forcing people to get these parts by making the alternative much, much worse, is worse than just forcing them to get these parts.
Worse? the effects would be the exact same. There's simply just more freedom in the 2nd approach as both translate into each other.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@OrionBase generator repair time is already at the maximum tolerable limit (and maybe a touch beyond that). Effectively forcing people to get these parts by making the alternative much, much worse, is worse than just forcing them to get these parts.
Worse? the effects would be the exact same. There's simply just more freedom in the 2nd approach as both translate into each other.
The effects with the parts would be the same, but not the effects without the parts, and therein lies the problem. Base generator repair time should not be increased in any way, period, end of story.
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@Orion said:
The effects with the parts would be the same, but not the effects without the parts, and therein lies the problem. Base generator repair time should not be increased in any way, period, end of story.It shouldn't be, if it were the only option, since that option would be boring. Maybe 100 seconds is boring, maybe 80 seconds is boring too.
What we are sure of is that the TOTAL Objective time should be increased. Previously, this time equalled Generator time (ignoring exit gates).
Either the timer had to be increased or the amount of generators needed would have to be increased.
The problem here is whether it's mandated to do something boring:In our version it isn't. In the example I give, every part eliminated circa 15 seconds of generator time. What if this was 40 seconds for the 1st part? and generators took 120 seconds?
The players do have the freedom, but they also have the freedom to use toolboxes and reduce that 120 back to 80, resulting in a similar gen-time which we'd call "on the gen-boringness bliss point".
Offering freedom is a very useful tool: If they don't want to repair long generators then they will collect parts (to the degree collecting them is more beneficial as determined by the ratio's).
Offering them to spend a lot of time on a generator simultaneously allows them to use toolboxes on certain generators and still have Gen-Rushing not be that big of an issue.What people will quickly learn = early game means collecting parts. After about 1/2(really depending on our ratio's) they'll start working on it, but can still skip this phase if they have the toolboxes strong enough to tank through 80+ gens.
(The Part system of course is also lessening the use of toolboxes, big gen times may be part of keeping them relevant, yet healthy)
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I see this mainly as a second chance to surviviors screwing up 3 gen proxy and leading to the lost of a game because the killer gen locked or the surviviors messed themselves up. This fixes this issue and can result in survivors major mistake to be negated because they had parts. This is some what balanced since it gives killer the inablity to prolong the game since surviviors can collect parts, but it also challenges survivors to commit on installing a part.2
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That wouldn't work imo, unless the cafting area for the parts were totally random like no specific spawn locations. Because if they had any system killers can learn where they spawn and patrol those areas specifically in the first few minutes and get a 4k a lot easier or hold the game hostage by doing the objective of guarding.JanTheMan said:Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.1 -
@Dokta_Carter said:
JanTheMan said:Survivors should have to, at least install one part to start working on a gen.
That wouldn't work imo, unless the cafting area for the parts were totally random like no specific spawn locations. Because if they had any system killers can learn where they spawn and patrol those areas specifically in the first few minutes and get a 4k a lot easier or hold the game hostage by doing the objective of guarding.
Interesting. Though I may have not specifically mentioned it; only the basement has a guaranteed crafting area. the other 2 are spawned outside of proximity of each other, unlike how a chest could spawn near a basement chest.
But you are right. Being (as good as)mandated to go for the parts indeed increases chances to be found. as it limits the possible (main objective) locations to 3, instead of an otherwise increased amount to 8+3, for the better or the worse.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Orion said:
The effects with the parts would be the same, but not the effects without the parts, and therein lies the problem. Base generator repair time should not be increased in any way, period, end of story.It shouldn't be, if it were the only option, since that option would be boring. Maybe 100 seconds is boring, maybe 80 seconds is boring too.
What we are sure of is that the TOTAL Objective time should be increased. Previously, this time equalled Generator time (ignoring exit gates).
Either the timer had to be increased or the amount of generators needed would have to be increased.
The problem here is whether it's mandated to do something boring:In our version it isn't. In the example I give, every part eliminated circa 15 seconds of generator time. What if this was 40 seconds for the 1st part? and generators took 120 seconds?
The players do have the freedom, but they also have the freedom to use toolboxes and reduce that 120 back to 80, resulting in a similar gen-time which we'd call "on the gen-boringness bliss point".
Offering freedom is a very useful tool: If they don't want to repair long generators then they will collect parts (to the degree collecting them is more beneficial as determined by the ratio's).
Offering them to spend a lot of time on a generator simultaneously allows them to use toolboxes on certain generators and still have Gen-Rushing not be that big of an issue.What people will quickly learn = early game means collecting parts. After about 1/2(really depending on our ratio's) they'll start working on it, but can still skip this phase if they have the toolboxes strong enough to tank through 80+ gens.
(The Part system of course is also lessening the use of toolboxes, big gen times may be part of keeping them relevant, yet healthy)
First of all, it's not "our" version, it's "your" version, unless you're using the royal "we".
Increasing the base generator repair time will not work, period. There's nothing to be discussed here.
Yes, the total objective time needs to be increased, that's why any additional objective must be mandatory.
Optional objectives only provide an increase in objective time once in a blue moon, since they are, by definition, optional, and few people will do them. Again, this is not debatable.
We already have plenty of optional objectives, all of which provide a clear in-game advantage (totems and chests), which was pointed out in another thread, but survivors simply don't do them because they are optional.Someone with a gun to their head doesn't have any freedom; not really. You want to hold a gun to people's heads, saying that if they don't do what you want, you're going to make sure they suffer. That doesn't work. Either you go all the way and make it part of the obligatory gameplay, which will make people accept it more easily, or you don't do it. Adding in forced optional objectives will just piss people off.
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Yes, the total objective time needs to be increased, that's why any additional objective must be mandatory.
Optional objectives only provide an increase in objective time once in a blue moon, since they are, by definition, optional, and few people will do them. Again, this is not debatable.
You may have not read the full OP I see.
There is a clear distinction between a mandatory and a purely optional objective.
We consider doing generators mandatory and we considering sabotaging optional.But calling the Parts optional would be deceiving: Because the Part system also makes flat out doing gens optional. Both flat out doing gens and doing parts fall in this now half-mandatory category.
and few people will do them. Again, this is not debatable.
Will nobody be doing Partless-generators since this is now optional? That's highly debatable.
When there are 2 routes (intertwined with one another), which route will purely depend on which one is stronger and which one comes with said possible draw-backs or benefits.The devil is in the details here: Ratio's per part against gen-time decide everything.
Adding in forced optional objectives will just piss people off.
Optional objectives that (which you believe) are forced upon you are called mandatory objectives. What you call forced here is called META.
But since a META strategy can change, so can it change here too;
When a toolbox offers a lot of repair speed; say 25% (purple without add-ons) even that can return a 100 second generator to an 80 second generator. If doing an 80 second generator is more beneficial than than collecting 5 parts and doing a 10 second generator with 25% increased speed then the META is doing a generator for 80 seconds with a toolbox.That is where mandatory and "forced" differs.
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Interesting, though ,modifying generators seems a bit roundabount. In the end you're still going to have to press M1.
What would you think about having to install X new parts in one of the exit doors (or even the hatch!) in order for them to be open-able once all gens are completed, so there is an incentive to work on parts/doors inversely to the number of completed gens while the killer needs to patrol more space?
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@Free_Hugs said:
Interesting, though ,modifying generators seems a bit roundabount. In the end you're still going to have to press M1.What would you think about having to install X new parts in one of the exit doors (or even the hatch!) in order for them to be open-able once all gens are completed, so there is an incentive to work on parts/doors inversely to the number of completed gens while the killer needs to patrol more space?
I think that they shouldn't be mandatory for a gate's open-ability, but the idea of using them on exit gates too seems very healthy.
Gates take too long to power for a 2 person or 1 person team. 2 people might just be on the edge.
I think gates would be: 1 part: 15 seconds. 2 parts: 5 seconds with a part taking 5 seconds to install.
Since a survivor can always bring 1 part to the exit gates, therefore the total time it takes to complete a gate is still 20 seconds since installing costs 5 seconds too.
This would also mean that Remember Me should be buffed, since a 5 second gate is a multiplier of 4. If Remember Me is buffed appropriately, it might actually be a pretty good perk, since you'll actually REALLY want to open the gate with parts, which may come unexpected.
Glad that you brought that up!
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@XavierBoah17 said:
Im not sure if I glossed over it or not but did you mention anything about the number of parts you can have on you?Edit: nvm I reread it. I feel like this could fix the whole 3v1 disadvantage by allowing survivors to gather parts to make up for the loss of a player and can really tip a momentum change for survivors.
Yep, that is what it's designed to do (: Solving Death-Efficiency and making the game (unlike vanilla minimally) playable during any phase of the game, no matter how many survivors are alive.
I also think that parts would decrease great skill check sizes slightly for every part installed or increase skill check oddswand difficulty when awake (so to not effect Freddy for the Freddy mains out there.)
I'm not sure if I understood this part? (Installing parts did not intend to have skill-checks/crafting them didn't intend to have them either, although I see no particular reason not to add them.)
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In my mind additional objectives should both be mandatory but with failsafes.
Ex: Have parts around the map that need to be put into generators before you can repair them (or before you can put them over 50% or something). There are slightly more parts than gens (like 10 or something) so You always have more than 1 that can be found.
The basement has power cells that need to be put into the gate to open it once the generators are done, but if you power all 7 gens instead of just 5 then you can bypass this.
Stuff like that
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Coming to think of it; It's also possible to use (instant) generator regression to make the Parts stronger in comparison with doing flat generators thus without the need for increasing gen-times, though I'd argue that doing a generator should always be the slightly stronger method, for the fact that doing parts has a lot more benefits to it.
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@Orion
You must agree with all his ideas, they are not up for debate and or changes, his ideas are flawless in design...
please see graph of his greatness over time:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape
Amazing idea definitely see everyone doing this optional side quest. Well done another genius proposal, oh you should be a dev oh your so amazing
*looks around for Queen to come feed the ego*5 -
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Yes please, what do you have in mind?AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Id imagine it being described something like this:
The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory it’s.......
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@Paddy4583 said:
Yes please, what do you have in mind?I wouldn't call it an optional side quest. It's 1 of the 2 main routes through which you can complete your objective. With the current variables typically slower than choosing route A but with more late-game security.
If your mission was to fill a glass with liquid and you could choose to fill it with either cola or orange juice, I wouldn't call filling the glass with cola you doing an optional side-quest to filling the glass. It'd be doing the main objective.
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Haha 😂AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Paddy4583 said:
Yes please, what do you have in mind?I wouldn't call it an optional side quest. It's 1 of the 2 main routes through which you can complete your objective. With the current variables typically slower than choosing route A but with more late-game security.
If your mission was to fill a glass with liquid and you could choose to fill it with either cola or orange juice, I wouldn't call filling the glass with cola you doing an optional side-quest to filling the glass. It'd be doing the main objective.
Your not very good with analogy’s either it seems.
The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory Its???
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The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Paddy4583The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.Outside of your perfect DbD world, I see no reason why Survivors would choose your secondary option over just using the good old gen rush.
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Upvoted. i really like this idea and completely agree with the idea that no action should be mandatory (beyond actually completing the generator that is) if anything, i think that gen times are already too long on their own with a single player working on them. that being said while i don't wish for longer gen times per say i do recognize that gens (collectively) go to fast. the parts system (when impacting the last survivor alive) essentially acts as a more cohesive "left behind" (bills perk) where gen speeds increase (and if im following correctly) can no longer regress past a certain point. im supremely down for that, and i think along with that buff of allowing people to stop gens regressing past a certain percent, we should buff the amount taken off a gen by a killers kick (but increase the time to kick a gen (atleast in a chase) so killers have to choose to kick them in chases). so long as there is an infinite ability to make parts at different locations, and those locations are limited in nature, then im all for it. along with the fact that this would effectively increase generator times by putting the survivors in a situation where they likely need to go get a part then i love the idea (ie gens take longer without them then they do now.)
I'd also like to add onto the killer buff/nerf to kicking i mentioned earlier, that adding very slight (1% per like 5-10s sort of slow) degeneration to gens when no ones working on them after a certain amount of time would be extremely nice, meaning that if the killer moves you off a generator, it will very very slowly regress, (percent of degeneration should be far slower then if the killer kicks it to still motivate them to kick it, yet still be helpful if the killer can apply extraordinary map pressure)
Hell maybe build in overcharge but make it a regular skill check, and buff the perk by making it soundless or smaller0 -
@DocOctober said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Paddy4583The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.Outside of your perfect DbD world, I see no reason why Survivors would choose your secondary option over just using the good old gen rush.
For 1 and 2: It's the only option you have left when there are 2/3 people alive that have a certain amount of gens left to do. (If we take the environment representing dbd in it's current state).
If you imagine DBD in a state in which you can no longer rely on a hatch and the free escape aspect has been removed, then it's the only safe option. With different ratio's between x amount of parts + gen-time, doing x parts may be more beneficial rushing wise. (Such a thing also varies based on whether someone's bring toolboxes).
It all comes down to which variables you choose and which (problematic) vanilla systems remain unchanged.
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No your analogy is incorrect:AlwaysInAGoodShape said:The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.
heres you idea explained with your analogy:
You can fill this glass with the orange juice which is located next to the glass and will take 80sexonds to fill the glass.
Or you can fill it with cola which you have to make at designated areas and then bring back to the glass and once you’ve brought it back it will take you 5 additional seconds to open the bottle along side the additional time it’s taken to make it and it will take 80 seconds to fill the glass.
there fixed it for you.aounds like a side quest to me2 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@DocOctober said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Paddy4583The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.Outside of your perfect DbD world, I see no reason why Survivors would choose your secondary option over just using the good old gen rush.
For 1 and 2: It's the only option you have left when there are 2/3 people alive that have a certain amount of gens left to do. (If we take the environment representing dbd in it's current state).
If you imagine DBD in a state in which you can no longer rely on a hatch and the free escape aspect has been removed, then it's the only safe option. With different ratio's between x amount of parts + gen-time, doing x parts may be more beneficial rushing wise. (Such a thing also varies based on whether someone's bring toolboxes).
It all comes down to which variables you choose and which (problematic) vanilla systems remain unchanged.
The way you phrase it, you'd think that that would be a very common occurrence, which I disagree with. And generally, things shouldn't be centred around the uncommon.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
Upvoted. i really like this idea and completely agree with the idea that no action should be mandatory (beyond actually completing the generator that is) if anything, i think that gen times are already too long on their own with a single player working on them. that being said while i don't wish for longer gen times per say i do recognize that gens (collectively) go to fast. the parts system (when impacting the last survivor alive) essentially acts as a more cohesive "left behind" (bills perk) where gen speeds increase (and if im following correctly) can no longer regress past a certain point. im supremely down for that, and i think along with that buff of allowing people to stop gens regressing past a certain percent, we should buff the amount taken off a gen by a killers kick (but increase the time to kick a gen (atleast in a chase) so killers have to choose to kick them in chases). so long as there is an infinite ability to make parts at different locations, and those locations are limited in nature, then im all for it. along with the fact that this would effectively increase generator times by putting the survivors in a situation where they likely need to go get a part then i love the idea (ie gens take longer without them then they do now.)My posts don't need to be so long if people like you can read my mind (:
I'd also like to add onto the killer buff/nerf to kicking i mentioned earlier, that adding very slight (1% per like 5-10s sort of slow) degeneration to gens when no ones working on them after a certain amount of time would be extremely nice, meaning that if the killer moves you off a generator, it will very very slowly regress, (percent of degeneration should be far slower then if the killer kicks it to still motivate them to kick it, yet still be helpful if the killer can apply extraordinary map pressure)
Hell maybe build in overcharge but make it a regular skill check, and buff the perk by making it soundless or smallerThere are a lot of regression options that we can explore indeed. I didn't cover them here but what you mention could easily be possible and since you can move generators down to 10 seconds could hardly ever become problematic.
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The way you phrase it, you'd think that that would be a very common occurrence, which I disagree with. And generally, things shouldn't be centred around the uncommon.
No I'm saying that with those variables, it has the ability to become either UBER common or completely uncommon, based on how you do the variables.
That is my point. With this implementation, the structure is in place. The only thing left to do is find what one might call "the bliss point."For example, if you'd wanted to make the Parts extremely relevant, then you'd do something like: The 1st part gives you a multiplier of 8 and everybody would use it.
If you want people to never use it then the last part gives you a multiplier of 1.1 and nobody would use it, not even in the late-game.0 -
Still wrong. Doing the main objective very slowly is still not side-questing. Not doing the main objective: that is side-questing.
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