Killers, please stop dodging.

Not much to add that the first few posts have not already mentioned.

SWFs have communication, if i'm chasing one of them the other 3 know, and are on separate gens.

SWFs always have DS and BT, there is no consistent counterplay to DS. Juggling only works if there is a hook nearby.

SWFs have every advantage over a game that is already quite stressful as killer at rank 1.

What advantage does a killer have against a 4 man SWF on comms? None.

@GHERBEARRULES said:
Stop using >2 flashlights, keys, or toolboxes with swf and I might consider

Stop making excuses since that's just what that is an excuse to dodge even when it's blatantly obvious it's not a swf group. I never dodge unless someone has excessive ping since it's not fair to the other survivors in the game.

4 flashlights etc I simply adapt and go from there, if they outplay me they outplay me, if I outplay them I outplay them. They can bring items but so can I and I have the advantage of knowing what they bring and which character they're on.

@BigBlackMori said:
Oh, i see the OP has finally resorted to insulting anyone he/she disagrees with and denying that voice comms gives an overwhelming advantage while using anecdotal evidence to back up their feelings-based argument.

I totally didn't see that coming.

You mean they pulled the normal biased killer main routine? The bottom line is there's people on both sides that're biased and both sides have people that toss insults.

Bottom line most swf aren't that hard to beat if you'd just stop dodging them people would realize they're a false bogeyman.

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:
Stop dodging is like asking survivors for stop being overpowered.

If survivors were truly op like back in the day of infinites then killers wouldn't be getting any kills at all, gens would be done in 30 seconds and games would be over in 2 minutes.

Just because they were even more op in previous builds doesnt mean, they are balanced now.
Flawed logic.

Against a good SWF only a nurse stands a chance, because the round can be over within 3-4 minutes + they have communication.

@LegitAdventurer said:
A message to all killers. I never understood why people are afraid to fight any sort of survivors. Are you not a confident killer? Do you think you're bad? I don't get it. I understand killers have almost instantaneous wait times but survivors do not. I can't tell you how annoying it is to wait 10-15 minutes to find a game just to get dodged, sometimes 3 or 4 times in a row.

Stop being afraid of SWF groups, half the time i get dodged I'm only a group of 2 people. Sometimes people join up all at once, regardless of them being in a SWF together or not. Ontop of killers being afraid of specific survivors (???) I still dont understand that stigma. "Ope nope. I can't kill them, they have a claudette on the team. Time to dodge" 

So TLDR killers, please stop dodging us. We understand you find games instantly but we do not.
-sincerely,
survivors and our ridiculous wait times.

I'll dodge a SWF team that comes in with four flashlights. Obviously, they're looking to frustrate me as much as possible, which means I'll have to play extra sweaty to counter it. It isn't a matter of confidence, it's a matter of annoyance. Particularly considering if I'm facing a SWF team, I'm far more likely to burn my best add-on's, but get the same or fewer points as my reward.

But SWF are a pain in the ass anyway. In solo queue matches, if I catch a survivor at my totem, or they happen to loop me past it, only that survivor knows where it is, and I can focus extra attention on them. In SWF, everyone knows. This goes for trap placement and perks as well. If I surprise one survivor with Spirit Fury, I can still use that against the next survivor, and then the next... except in SWF. Once it's used the first time, all the survivors know and will throw pallets earlier to nullify my perk. The same can be done to nullify Make Your Choice and many other perks which, more or less, depend on survivors behaving in particular ways. With traps, since one person seeing it placed means everyone knows, the other members of the team can move in behind me and disarm or remove the trap they never would have otherwise known was there.

Furthermore, relatively few SWF groups are what they should be. If I'm a rank 10 killer, for example, and a SWF team joins in, I may be facing two rank 1's, along with a 15 and 10. Obviously, for less experienced killers, the match is going to go very differently and far more frustratingly than against four players with more or less the same experience and skill as himself.

What's really funny though are how many survivors, who play SWF primarily, complain that they face Nurse, Billy and Spirit in almost every match. The killer may not have planned to play those killers, but to counter SWF, they are the best choices.

Of course, you know all this, because these are the advantages you enjoy while playing SWF. That you're complaining that another player may not want to play against that demonstrates just how little empathy you have for other players. I'd recommend you stop complaining about being dodged, and make suggestions for how to make matchmaking better, or how to give Killers some other balance when facing SWF teams, or at least an incentive to play against them.

@Master said:

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:
Stop dodging is like asking survivors for stop being overpowered.

If survivors were truly op like back in the day of infinites then killers wouldn't be getting any kills at all, gens would be done in 30 seconds and games would be over in 2 minutes.

Just because they were even more op in previous builds doesnt mean, they are balanced now.
Flawed logic.

Against a good SWF only a nurse stands a chance, because the round can be over within 3-4 minutes + they have communication.

Just because you can't refute point doesn't mean my logic is flawed it just means your counter argument was and not totally balanced doesn't equal op in any shape, form, or fashion.

That' just not true, since Spirit, billy also can do well against good swf depending on the killer and 4 good solo's can win if the killers bad in 3-4 minutes as well.

Footage of that happening? And I dont mean your last videos where you showed me a game of rank 1 survivors taht didnt know how to loop the shack

Ah yes the typical excuses of it's always the survivors are potatoes excuse and the last time I posted videos you then moved the goalposts to say that wasn't enough videos.

When I posted even more videos your excuse was then well rank means nothing but when I posted your comments where you said when you get to rank 1 your opinion is valid became silent.

We both know that no matter how much evidence i post you'll just use your usual troll excuses and move the goalposts, change the subject or act like you never said that.

@The_Trapper said:

The fact you think there is not an advantage to having communication made me chuckle and shake my head. Here are the differences between the two:
SWF on comms:

• Tells the other 3 survivors who the killer is
• Tells the other 3 survivors where the killer is
• Tells the other 3 survivors where hex totems are
• Tells the other 3 survivors if they are being chased, thus allowing the other 3 to safely work on gens
• Tells the other 3 where hag/trapper traps are
• Tells the other 3 where the killer is going in the event of being hooked
• Tells the other 3 where the hatch is
• Coordinates what items to take, and what perks to take.
• Tells the other 3 who is unhooking who

No solos can do this, so for you to say it's the same is just cringe. You just hate killer mains trying to nerf your easy experience as survivor, it's alright, lots of people do the same thing.

You're forgetting the perks that while not as powerful as voice comms do give good info like bond etc.

Now as for your heavily biased claims let's put the nail in that coffin right now since you're choosing the most biased figure which accounts for the least part of the population.

4 strangers = 30%
2 friends + 2 strangers = 34.1%
2 friends + 2 friends = 9.5%
3 friends + 1 stranger = 17.9%
4 friends = 8.5%

So 8.5 of lobbies are a 4 man swf group giving communication and despite all the horribly histrionic claims by the biased killer mains 4 man swat teams aren't that common.

You're also ignoring al the times survivors communicate in lobby about items to take, what stuff they're taking, are they running DS/OoO, looping, insta heals, running Deliverance etc.

Then lets not forget that there are groups of solo players that just plain know what they're doing and pay attention to what's going on. I've been part of those 4 man solo groups and we've absolutely wrecked the killer because we played smart and the killer didn't.

This isn't about an easy experience except for the whiny killer mains that want to blame every loss on swf even when it wasn't swf or they just got flat outplayed.

It's hypocritical to complain about swf when you lose or just play badly but when you destroy them because the vast majority are casuals and generally screw around. You don't come to the forums and complain about destroying them because they were so easy to beat.

The old adage be careful what you wish for comes to mind because if it's solo only you're going to be left facing the solo only players that know what they're doing.

At that point you'll have no more excuses to use because you'll have long lobby wait times, the swat team players will be left and you won't be getting anymore buffs to take you to the level of facing swf.

@powerbats said:
You're forgetting the perks that while not as powerful as voice comms do give good info like bond etc.

I think the point is that solo survivors are required to use perks like Bond, Empathy, Detective's Hunch, etc... to gain the information shared by SWF, which comes at no cost to the SWF's. You could see the voice comms as freeing up a perk slot, or as giving the SWF players an extra slot or two that solo survivors don't get. In either case, their overall build is all the stronger for it.

Now as for your heavily biased claims let's put the nail in that coffin right now since you're choosing the most biased figure which accounts for the least part of the population.

4 strangers = 30%
2 friends + 2 strangers = 34.1%
2 friends + 2 friends = 9.5%
3 friends + 1 stranger = 17.9%
4 friends = 8.5%

So 8.5 of lobbies are a 4 man swf group giving communication and despite all the horribly histrionic claims by the biased killer mains 4 man swat teams aren't that common.

You're also ignoring al the times survivors communicate in lobby about items to take, what stuff they're taking, are they running DS/OoO, looping, insta heals, running Deliverance etc.

Then lets not forget that there are groups of solo players that just plain know what they're doing and pay attention to what's going on. I've been part of those 4 man solo groups and we've absolutely wrecked the killer because we played smart and the killer didn't.

This isn't about an easy experience except for the whiny killer mains that want to blame every loss on swf even when it wasn't swf or they just got flat outplayed.

It's hypocritical to complain about swf when you lose or just play badly but when you destroy them because the vast majority are casuals and generally screw around. You don't come to the forums and complain about destroying them because they were so easy to beat.

The old adage be careful what you wish for comes to mind because if it's solo only you're going to be left facing the solo only players that know what they're doing.

At that point you'll have no more excuses to use because you'll have long lobby wait times, the swat team players will be left and you won't be getting anymore buffs to take you to the level of facing swf.

Sure, there's no promise that people who queue solo are worse players than SWF, and there's no promise that only going against solo players will generate a win. That said, SWF does come with great advantages that the same players wouldn't have if they queue'd solo.

There's also the problem of matchmaking with the ranking system. If you're a mid-rank killer, any SWF group may very well have one or two red ranked survivors who can easily out-play you. Call it what you want, but for mid-ranked killers, there's a good chance they'll get bullied by far more experienced survivors in a SWF match.

So, with the survivors having advantages, such as voice comms, and the likelihood of facing far out-ranked survivors, why would a killer not dodge the lobby? When compared with facing solo survivors, there's a better chance that the killer will get more kills and more points since the solo survivors won't have those advantages. Of course, in any match, the killer may get out-played, but it is more likely against SWF teams.

It's all down-side for the killer. So again, what incentive is there for the killer to play the match and not dodge the lobby? Now, if Behavior added in bonus points when facing a SWF team, that would make sense and give us a reason not to dodge the lobby. Or, extra points for facing survivors above our own rank. But neither of those seem likely. So, keep queue'ing as SWF, and you'll get matches sooner or later, and you can have your fun. But don't blame killers who'd rather not go through the headache.

Lastly, in my experience, SWF groups are far more toxic than solos. This isn't necessarily in the match, though there are plenty of teams out there that want to be the next No0b3, and frustrate the hell out of the killers, but more so in the post-match chat. Solo survivors who die before the end of the match will usually leave the lobby immediately, but this isn't so for SWF, who spectate until the last of them dies or escapes. If the killer does well, it's a lot of cursing, name calling and accusations to explain away why their team was crushed. If the survivors do well, and they escape, it's a lot of trying to rub it in the killer's face.

It isn't universal, of course, but it is far from uncommon. I have plenty of video and screenshots, if you care to see.

On the other hand, I faced a "hook camping" Wraith tonight. In the match, I did 4 gens, 1 of the 3 hook saves, and opened the exit gate, but one of the other survivors decided to curse at the Wraith for proxy camping the hooks. Myself and another solo survivor stuck up for the Wraith, pointing out that when survivors loop the killer around the hook, that's not exactly "camping" or "toxic" play. I was more pissed that none of the other survivors seemed to be doing much during the match. But, if it had been a 4 man SWF, it's unlikely one of the others would have spoken up for the killer against his friend. It gets really old to be cursed at for doing well, and cursed at for not doing well, and cursed at for daring to play the game at all.

So, to sum it up: as the killer you can go against a SWF team, knowing they have significant advantages over solo survivors, there's an increased likelihood of toxicity, and decreased likelihood of significant points. Or, you can dodge the lobby and try for some solo survivors. It isn't exactly a tough choice.

I realize SWF groups want their games too, but from the killer point of view, it's all downside. That's why you get dodged. I guess that's the price you pay for the advantages you bring into the match, and how far too many players behave after the match.

@Crizpen said:

At least you understood the points i was trying to make and yes it does technically free up a perk slot or slots but often times survivors ina group will still run information perks.

I do agree it's an advantage but where I and quite a few other killer have an issue is with all the excuse making and blaming going on. Most swf are potatoes plain and simple and the swat teams while they exist are such a small minority you can't even use them as an example.

In fact if all the killers that complain about it so much would stop complaining and learn to play against them they'd find out that the monster in their closet was just a coat after all. Yes when you get wrecked it's not fun but none of those complaining do so when they do the wrecking.

Also most of the swf blaming is is just that blaming and is used as an excuse for their own poor play or mistakes. When they get wrecked by solo players it's oh you were swf I knew i should've dodged even when everyone joined separately minutes apart.

When it's a pair of solo's and a duo it's still 4 man swf excuses along with 4 man DS/AD/SB etc even when there might only be 1 of those perks in the game.

Once they buff solo up to the level of swf information wise killers can get buffed to that level but then all those excuse makes will have to accept they're part of their trouble.

I've said it for a long time they should make a solo only lobby for the killers complaining the most but then force them to stay there. They can never leave that solo lobby again even if their wait times are horrid because they got what they wanted.

The response from same said illers is why shouldn't they be able to join swf lobbies instead of having to accept what they asked for. I turn around and remind them they'll just dodge anyways which is what some have said before.

They'll simply join a swf queue even if it's separate just so they can troll and lobby dodge at the last second because it's not about actual balance.

If I can adapt and learn how to play against swf then so can the rest of those that feel it's unfair since instead of coming here to complain I learned. I've also suggested killer buffs some of which were quite op but in every case i discussed pro's and cons and ways to overcome those if any.

@Crizpen said:
@powerbats

I can agree that a lot of SWF are potatoes... myself included. And, yes, they do often tend to be overly altruistic to their own detriment. But I still point to the advantages SWF have over solo's and killers as reason I don't blame killers for dodging lobbies.

I don't generally dodge lobbies unless I see a bunch of flashlights, because I know what they're all going to try to do, and I'd rather not have to play extra sweaty, or slug, or eat a bunch of blinds. That isn't fun for me, so I don't do it. For the same reasons, I can't blame a killer who dodges a SWF group.

As for balancing, it isn't something Behavior has been able to do thus far. Giving solo survivors a buff isn't restricted only to solo survivors, the SWF get it to. Then killers need to be buffed to compete against SWF, which puts solos back at the bottom of the totem pole... round and round it goes. The best I've seen so far is the upcoming change to hide the killer's load out until the game is done, but I'm skeptical that it'll change much. It's a good change, but far from achieving balance.

Instead, the changes they're making to the way survivors join lobbies, all at once, takes away the choice from killers on if they face a SWF or solo survivors. Short of pulling up their profiles and looking for friends, or if the survivors all use similar names or cosmetics, the killer isn't going to know.

Which brings me back to what I think would be fair and equitable for all involved. If killers face SWF, or survivors above their own ranking because of the SWF matchmaking, I believe they should be rewarded for the harder match with a bloodpoint bonus. It would help killers who are willing to take on the (generally) more difficult match, it would help SWF because there would be fewer dodges, and it wouldn't disrupt game balance. Say, a 10% bonus for each additional SWF. So, a 2 man team gives 10%, 3 man 20%, 4 man 30%. Nothing crazy, but enough to offset the more difficult match and the decreased chance of getting a bunch of kills.

I'd even take it a step further and reward survivors who, because of SWF matchmaking, face killers with a better rank, bonus bloodpoints as well. Chances are good, after all, that they don't know how to run ideal paths, or where to look for pallets and windows, and they'll die much faster.

Hell, they could probably even manage to add it in without breaking game sounds, lighting or mechanics. Maybe.

Now if we could only have the option of turning off post-match chat...

1. I can totally understand it but don't agree with it since you'll never get better if you dodge everything just because you think it's swf.

2. Those are indeed annoying but I bring Franklin's and bait the flashlights and I don't slug either and it's extremely satisfying when you get them dead. One thing I always tell people stop being defeatist or going into the match with a negative attitude.

   Because otherwise you've already lost/had a bad game before it's even started. You should go into each match planning to have fun, laugh at both yours and theirs mistakes. IF you clean house excellent, if not and you did the best you could then accept that.

3. Balancing is always going to be difficult even without swf in the game because skill levels, items, perks, addons and of course Nurse. With most of the players base in the I'm too young to die category you've got to balance around that to an extent.

   The plan is to buff solo up to the level of swf information wise so like base Kindred etc so they have most of the same info the swf has. Once they're at that level or close to it you can buff killers to that level or close to it.

4. The issue is that killers dodge just because they think there's a swf lobby and the advantage to all joining at once is that if the pool has available players they all join at the same time. Since right now if the killer starts a lobby and only 1 person is out there it automatically grabs them.

   With Dedicated servers coming and a pooling system people get put together much quicker and in a more uniform fashion.

5. The bonus bloodpoints has been suggested countless times before but some killers don't want that, they want fair matches but then derank to face people 10 ranks below their skill level for easier matches. The biggest issue with bonus bp is what do killer that have everything maxed already do with said bonus bp?

   You'd have to resort to shards really at that point but too much and they become meaningless but for some they'd be a welcome addition. I enjoy the challenge swf brings and since i've got no social life and am retired
   I've got more time.

   But for someone without much time each day some bonus shards might be nice perhaps that and or some bonus bp.

6. The best advice is to record each match played and watch it afterward to see your mistakes but also play survivor to learn that side as well. You can see how both good and bad killers and survivors play and learn a lot.

Because playing at rank one and seeing a group of prestiged survivors with toolboxes and flashlights usually equals annoying games and even more annoying end game messages from whiny survivors.

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:

You seem like a typical survivor main with almost no knowledge of whats actually going on.
If you have the solution for SWF in playing good, show it to us.

Ah yes the typical Ad Hominem that falls completely on it's face and as you've seen before I've stated I'm a killer main and have been for months now.

I've shown videos of common people playing against swf groups and doing well most of their matches and losing others. The responses were typical of the type of posters here, well that was only x videos shown, the survivors were potatoes.

The excuses went from there till finally it came down to the whiny excuse of last resort, rank means nothing and or swf.

Now if you'd bother going and looking at my posting history my discussions specifically you'd see I've made lots of suggestions to help killers out.

Some have been wildly op for killers while others would've been good but had too many drawbacks or they weren't practical at this time.

I advocated for the eventual SC nerf that hit before it was actually looked at along with some others on here. I suggested changes to BBQ that'd prevent hook rushing and allow killers to leave the hook without having to patrol 1st.

I proposed changes to how DS works to change it to a stun based format and make killers immune during the stun to flashlight blinds.

I proposed other perk changes and totem changes and much much more yet the responses I got from quite a few killers were you're nerfing killers and buffing survivors.

Now what have you proposed that's actually balanced and not just killer sided due to your bias?

I am survivor main actually.
I just dislike the game in its current state and see the problems killers are having without being a biased #########.

Survivors have to make mistakes in order for the killer to abuse it, if you aint playing a top tier killer.
Thats just a fact and you can get genrushed in 3 minutes, the games over then, with no counter play.
By any means how is this balanced?

I wont even argue with a person like you.
You can add me on steam and I can dominate you with my 4 players swf and you cant do ######### about it, if youd like.

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:

I am survivor main actually.
I just dislike the game in its current state and see the problems killers are having without being a biased *****.

Yep you're definitely a survivor main.

Survivors have to make mistakes in order for the killer to abuse it, if you aint playing a top tier killer.

Well duh, that's true in any game, one side needs to make mistakes either on their own or induced by the other side. You also don't have to play Nurse to do well, I took Spirit to rank 1 and usually 3-4kd and when I didn't it was because i screwed up or they just outplayed me.

Thats just a fact and you can get genrushed in 3 minutes, the games over then, with no counter play.
By any means how is this balanced?

You know what's also a fact you can also 4k and have no gens done at all and guess what games over with no counter play. I can use a best case scenario for my argument as well and mines much more likely to happen than yours. Oh and dev stats show survival rate is below 50% and that red ranks.

I wont even argue with a person like you.

When you can't argue your point you resort to the typical I'm not going to argue with a person like you deflection.

You can add me on steam and I can dominate you with my 4 players swf and you cant do ######### about it, if youd like.

Why would I want to deal with a toxic person trying to show me how big of a epeen they have? I don't need to add someone on Steam just to deal with toxicity.

I dont need to argue any further with you.
Didnt want a toxic match, just prove you, you aint gonna win, no matter what, no matter how good your ######### tactic against swf is.
You are wrong. Face it, stop using delusional arguments to defend your point.

@mcNuggets said:

I dont need to argue any further with you.
Didnt want a toxic match, just prove you, you aint gonna win, no matter what, no matter how good your [BAD WORD] tactic against swf is.
You are wrong. Face it, stop using delusional arguments to defend your point.

The only person delusional here is you and this post absolutely proves it.