So tired of the Knight 3 gen strat
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Yeah so obviously your agenda is to troll rather than have any valid discussion, so I will reply once more and only once.
Again, you clearly do not understand the premise here and you prove that with your own use of the phrase "Don't three gen yourself"
Hens can explain to you what is happening here and how this is NOT something survivors are doing to themselves (nobody has an issue with survivors who 3 gen themselves and killers defend that).
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Killers are just not allowed to do anything, huh? No strategy, no tactics, no planning ahead. Survivors just gonna cry and cry and cry every time they lose until daddy BHVR comes along with more hand-holding, more free escapes, more second chances, and more killer nerfs.
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Please watch the video above to explain the issue here, I am tired of having to explain this over and over again.
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I don’t need it explained. I just don’t agree with you.
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Lmao... so, you see no issue with this?
Well... I don't even know how to reason with someone who cannot understand the problem here so all the best I guess.
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I see no issue with it. There were multiple times in that video the survivors could have completed the gen but they made mistakes.
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Fun for who? there are 2 sides.
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I mean, I don’t think it’s a particularly fun or engaging way to play, but it is valid.
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I guess i just suck with my 1k hours.
- lets make this a game for the elite with 6k+ hours only... its unly fair for the veterans...
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What exactly are killers not allowed to do? As long as they are not abusing exploits or cheating they should be allowed to play in whichever way they see fit. If a Bubba feels the cold of winter and therefore wants to cuddle up with you on a nice and cozy basement hook they should be allowed to do so. They bought the game just like you did.
Now, don't get me wrong. I know this is frustrating but you can't really blame that on the killer. They try to win using every tool at their disposal just as survivors do most of the time. In addition I don't know what else (besides camping a hook) the Knight is supposed to do with his power. Everything Knight should be good at, he is actually terrible at.
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If they nerf speed for gens and they nerf perk like provethyself mb on some maps they should cut 3-5 pallets probably a lot of killers will stop 3 gens and tunelling .When they start to think about killers who have no mobility then people who play as killers will be able to enjoy the game and chase and etc .Untill then 3 gens and tunelling 1 person as fast as it possible .
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Sure.
What I'm saying is that the problem is not really fixable on a surgical level, and would require an overhaul of the killer(s) in question.
I wish hostage games were moderated a bit more aggressively (far, far too many survivors stalling things out playing hide and seek this event too) but the chances of that are sadly 0.
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get off your burner account TrU3Ta1ent
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get off to your bed kid
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You still didn’t propose an actual solution. I’d love to hear a suggestion that doesn’t just swing the advantage to survivors.
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I’d be curious to see what the community in a poll thinks about counter play. More specifically is running perks considered acceptable enough counter play. Like would we be fair to say running things liked repressed alliance is the counter play for. 3 gen straight with a gen kicking build or that shattered hope is the counter play to boons? Or should all things have counter play at base? Not being rhetorical here, actually curious. I lean towards there being counter play at base, however, if that’s the route we’re going there are already tons of things in the game without counter play at base.
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The old gen camping strat. Well thinking about it Knight should be pretty good at this and Artist, Nurse. Knight is pretty week so I can see why this can be a thing.
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Holding the game hostage almost always requires the killer body blocking.
Defending part of the map is fair game. You are not forced to chase anyone as killer. Killers need three gen play because things like : SWF and Shift W exist
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"Holding the game hostage almost always requires the killer body blocking."
lol, no. This is just so wrong.
Survivors refusing to do Gens is also holding the game hostage, even if no bodyblocking is involved.
Refusing to going for chases and just protecting a 3 gen is also holding the game hostage. Again, no bodyblocking involved.
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-"Refusing to going for chases and just protecting a 3 gen is also holding the game hostage. Again, no bodyblocking involved."
According to you maybe - but the moderators have said otherwise.
-"Survivors refusing to do Gens is also holding the game hostage, even if no bodyblocking is involved."
This is a failure of the afk bird system which is far too lenient.
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"According to you maybe - but the moderators have said otherwise."
I am very sure you can show me a quote.
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Do your own research. In the end you will find I am correct.
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So you dont have any proof. Thank you.
This Forum is so funny - Killer is holding the game hostage by refusing to progress the game, but since this Forum needs to pamper Killers, the people here cannot just accept that it is completely BS that Killers prolong the game to the maximum time limit by refusing to chase Survivors.
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Incorrect. The proof is on this forum. I can't be bothered to spoon feed you.
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Here is some spoonfeeding for you:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292294/#Comment_3292294
But I am very sure that you find something why it is not "holding the game hostage". Maybe some cherrypicking that Doctor was mentioned or that they mentioned griefing.
But there is 0 difference between a Doctor keeping everyone in Madness 3 without any attempt of downing them and a Killer kicking his 3 Gens with his Gen Regression-Perks without any attempt of downing a Survivor.
There is also not a difference between Survivors not working on Gens because they fear they would die and a Killer not commiting to any chases because they fear they might lose the last Gen.
But as I said, there will be some mental gymnastics why Killers are allowed to do that but Survivors are not.
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Look at the game Hens played. He didn't refuse to kill anyone.
Stalling is not letting the game progress. If you actively go for chases and actually injure people and then rush back to generators - that's not stalling.
"there is 0 difference between a Doctor keeping everyone in Madness 3 without any attempt of downing them"
Using the Hens game as an example. He was getting downs and hits. He was not refusing to attack - which would be stalling.
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Sometimes you can't injure someone but if they are trying to lead you away from the last three gens and part of their objective is to protect gens from getting repaired yea they will go back and not commit to a chase that will probably net them no hooks or Kills and a lost Gen.
As I stated above I held onto a 3Gen for 75mins before I Killed all survivors.....I used old Overcharge to keep them from Gen tapping but nothing else.....I never got in trouble for "Holding the Game Hostage"
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I dont care about the game Hens showcased. This was not the topic and there is 0 point in bringing that up.
You just dont have any arguments, this is why you bring up something which was unrelated to the topic.
Killers who refuse to try to kill Survivors and just protect their Gens without any intention to commit to a chase to get a down are holding the game hostage. And now I am just waiting for your proof of what some Mod said on this Forum. Everything else will be ignored, because you bring up unrelated things because you cannot proof your "point".
(Or, alternative - you can now write something and since you had the last word, you can think that you won this argument :) )
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Their objective is yet again to kill survivors. Protecting generators buys you time to prevent survivors from leaving, but literally the objective for killers is to KILL. You can use a 3-gen strategy, but you still need to progress the game towards killing the survivors, because it is literally your objective.
If you go around, only kick generators, down survivors every now and then but only for regression and never hook, you are not progressing your objective of killing survivors. You are not progressing the game through hook states either. You are just taking the game hostage.
Im tired of this mental gymnastics people go through of "protecting generators but never killing the survivors is fine" and "hour long matches are fine because all survivors die when the match timer ends". We all know it is BS, we all know it is against the rules of the game, we all know it is taking the game hostage, stop pretending like it isnt, ffs.
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It is unfortunate that in a kicking-meta, where 3-genning was already really strong, BHVR decided to release a killer who excels at defending a three gen -and- one of his perks is a no-brainer to throw into the Overcharge/COB/Eruption build. There's really not much survivors can do against that if the killer focuses on defending his three gen. And if he's a killer like Knight or Doc? No chance.
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"What exactly are killers not allowed to do?"
I feel like every day there's another thread on these forums screaming about something Killers do that needs to be stopped. Camping needs to be stopped. Tunnelling needs to be stopped. Slugging needs to be stopped. Every perk Survivors don't like needs to be stopped. 3 genning needs to be stopped. It's CREEPY to me how everything wrong with the game is apparently the Killer's fault, while Survivors hide behind the weird defense of "If when a Killer does Y, it takes me out of the game!" as if that isn't his freaking JOB. But at the same time everything a Survivor does is defended with "It's part of the game". This, however, doesn't translate to Killer gameplay.
AND I AM NOT EVEN A KILLER MAIN.
It's just exhausting to see day in and day out. Next week there will be another thing that BHVR needs to fix regarding Killers because it is "unhealthy" for the game.
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I wonder if there will be a crazy ban wave of all these hostage takers.
I'm sure a mod/dev will chime in on one of these sometime, soon :)
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Probably not unless things get nasty in here....also probably not since this is a mixed opinion on if it's hostage or not.....the Devs would have to announce that 3-Gen defense is actually against the rules....
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I'd argue that Hens intentionally held that game hostage. His intention from even before the match started (he used the Dead Dawg offering for its 3gen spawn capability) was to try and hold 4 survivors in a match for an hour. There were multiple times when multiple survivors screamed from an Eruption proc and then were incapacitated for 25 seconds during which time he could have hooked the downed survivor and still have kept his 3gen. He chose not to, and he only got 1 hook the entire match.
However, I don't think this strategy should be bannable. In current DbD it is a valid strategy that can result in a 4k after an hour and there is no clear rule stating that this is against the rules.
I just don't think games of DbD should be able to even last an hour or this strategy shouldn't be viable at all.
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As people have stated in the post and hens also says this in the video at the end at some 15:00 or so. its problem with the perks says this in the video at the end at some 15:00 or so. its problem with the perks -Overcharge and Call of brine- and nothing to do with killer. He is just showcasing how strong the perks are. it is not killer dependent or map dependent. he is using an example map and an example killer.
stronger killer are better at 3 gens. for example, all these m1 hits he got on knight in his 60 minute game are all instant downs for leatherface for example. stronger killer can win off 3 gens. its just that 3 gens are typically done by weaker killers because the weaker killer lack chase potential and have no real mobility or hook-kill pressure. Knight falls into category. No real mobility to counter shift-w and poor hook-kill pressure. Too slow at downing survivors.
Hens is purposely taking the game hostage, but on imbalanced maps, Survivors vs m1 killers can hold the game hostage by infinitely healing and hold-w away from the 3 gen. I usually 3 gen on Gideon's meat packing plant because the pallets are very imbalanced. Aggressively chasing survivor's on this map is not interesting for me. I am sure other killer do same thing on other maps that have too many time-wasting loops and are too easy to shift-w through health-state+pallet looping. Ideally killer not be balanced around camping generator and more balanced around chasing survivors around the map with their ability. I see 3 gen camping as more of coping mechanism for poorly balanced killer powers.
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Well thank you for all the useful inputs here, some interesting points were raised but I think I have made my opinion very clear and there is not much point continually repeating myself over and over.
Hopefully BHVR figures out something ASAP to get rid of this disgusting exploit of game/map/killer design, as it will start to hurt the game more and more when all the scummy players come out of their caves to start ruining every match
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"However, I don't think this strategy should be bannable."
If DBD gets changed so that you're not allowed to drag the game out for the purpose of winning then it makes so many killers less viable. Any killer that relies on M1 to down is essentially garbage if you can run the gens in 4 minutes. Any team worth a damn will be able to loop you for 4-6 minutes. People hated playing against pop because 6-9 pops was 2-3 minutes longer to finish all the generators.
There is a part in Hens video where he says this is my side of the map and that side is yours. This reflects a poor game design element where we have come to a point where the killer must rely on 3 gen and tunneling tactics. Gens are too fast. toolboxes are too strong. We have too many perks that can rapidly make gens take less time.
The devs proclaimed that +10 seconds to generator completion time meant that killers don't need to use gen regression perks. Nothing could be further from the truth given all the ways survivors can rush gens.
I will be the first in line to ask for tunneling to be removed - as long as it applies to both sides. Survivors should not need to be tunneled out for the killer to have a chance to win. Generators should not be anywhere near as easy to tunnel out as they are now. It doesn't matter when you play Blight or Nurse as almost any combination of gens is a "3 gen" but on most of the other killers you must keep three gens close together if you want to try to guard them.
-"But at the same time everything a Survivor does is defended with "It's part of the game". This, however, doesn't translate to Killer gameplay."
Most people only really think about one side of the game in regards to fun and balance. And while this goes for both sides - most of the offenders I see are survivors (since mathematically survivors are 4/5ths of the players in any game).
It's nice to see that at least one person is looking at both sides of the game.
If you do some searching you can find a recent game where CMWinter plays against a "comp drop" squad who stomp him on coal tower. He's a great player but he loves to play pig who becomes powerless at most loops. Do you remember how people were upset with the game before they relaxed MMR? Most people who got to a certain point were playing game after game against blight or nurse. Survivors need to be very careful or those will be the only killers that people bother to play.
It would be one thing if all the gens were a minimum distance so that any 3 gens was able to be defended by a regular movement speed killer. But that's not how the game is setup. SWF teams will almost always try to give the killer what my friend calls a "Y gen" which is the opposite of a three gen.
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One of the reasons I main survivor instead of killer is precisely because of the attitude. I can play survivor for 9 hours straight and get no salty killers and a bunch of GGs.
I can't play killer for more than four matches without getting someone salty over literally anything as killer. Even inane nonsense like "Trash NOED user" in games where they didn't even finish the gens, or running a perk like Spies in the Shadows. Seriously, we are shaming the birb perk now?
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"I dont care about the game Hens showcased. This was not the topic and there is 0 point in bringing that up."
Today is the 13th which means that ranks reset. I wanted my free 1M BP so I had to finish getting to max rank. In order to do that I needed to win about 10 games. In that set of games I had many games longer than 15 minutes. The second to last game for rank one lasted over 30 minutes.
I am very interested in Hens and his game because it had a similar parallel to my game. I defended a three gen that lasted the entire game but was almost broken several times. The contest was held on Rotten field and the survivors blew out one generator before I was able to contest it. Twice I had someone hooked in the middle of my three gen. One person lost two hook states and their rescue cost multiple health states.
At every chase I was building stacks of Save the Best for Last. Any casual observer might think I was stalling but what I was really doing was buildup up my advantage. As Nemesis when I get full T3 infection I'm better so I need to build that up. I also use STBFL religiously so I need 8 stacks too. That takes a while sometimes. But once I have both you had better have the game under control or I win.
My final round for rank one this season was on "The Game" and it lasted well over 20 minutes. It's dumb but sometimes you have to chase until they drop a pallet and return to the three gen right after they break it. Eventually even that map runs out of pallets.
I shouldn't have two games that take an hour to play but that's the DBD world we live in. At no point in either of these games was I ever not trying to win. I wanted that 4k so I could get the double pip. And in both games people had made me annoyed with some garbage so I had decided that no one would survive.
-"If you go around, only kick generators, down survivors every now and then but only for regression and never hook, you are not progressing your objective of killing survivors. You are not progressing the game through hook states either. You are just taking the game hostage."
This is survivor main propaganda. If I hit you and drop chase but force you to use a medkit to heal then that's one resource removed from the map. If I return to find one gen at 90% and then stand there until they are all at 0% I am slowly depleting resources. If I infect you enough times as Nemesis then there will be no vaccines. If I get 8 hits while abandoning chases and then return to my generators I am progressing the game by building up stacks of STBFL. When I have 8 stacks if you have even the most minor misstep then I can hit you twice very rapidly. Sometimes in a 3 gen situation I can have 4-6 false chases before someone makes such a mistake and then I get a quick down.
"Killers who refuse to try to kill Survivors and just protect their Gens without any intention to commit to a chase to get a down are holding the game hostage"
This is almost what the moderator's quote said - you are spinning the truth with what you want to be true. I can hit people and only commit to leave my generators when they are all at 0% progress. I can only try to hook someone when I know I can down them before 40 seconds pass (because that is how long two people on a generator take to finish it with certain perks).
There have been games where I am holding a three gen and I am forced to let someone bleed out for 20-30 seconds at a time as I just don't have the 15 seconds to hook them. But you need to realize that me putting someone on the floor is an attempt to kill them - even if it is a rather slow and unsure method.
In both of the games I mentioned there were times where I had 3 people either on the floor or on the hook. In both games the survivor team was able to recover either by boons, the unbreakable perk or team heals.
In so many ways it sounds like you are saying : the killer isn't allowed to leave a three gen and come back before we finish one of the gens. That's exactly the reason to drop a chase. If I leave for too long I either need to be finishing the game and happy with the kills that will result or I need to go back and reset the three gen.
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It's slightly off topic to mention but SftS used to be an S tier perk in 2016. Birds were different back then:
1) They were all over the place and on many maps they were in the middle of tiles
2) Birds had a massive trigger that was somewhere between 8-10m. (compared to now where it is 0-2m)
3) ducking past birds did nothing in the past.
You're not wrong though that so many survivors are toxic to me for beating them. My favorite is when I kill the entire 4 man SWF team and they tell me I am trash. What does that make them? Are they dog droppings that I scraped of my shoe?
But to keep everything balanced and fair I see a lot of toxic killers and survivors no matter which side I play. As a rule I never T bag because I don't like when people do it to me.
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Killers should be able to "drag the game out" so they can have time to get kills. That's why slowdown/regression perks exist.
What Hens showcased and now others are doing are just dragging the game out not even trying to kill and then letting the game timer ending do the killing for them. This strategy should not be in the game at all. I don't care what killer you're using, there is no proper reason or excuse for a player to resort to this and they should not have the option to do so.
DbD is on its way to a 3 year low for number of players. The new meta really sucks and having games that can last an hour is not helping.
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-"DbD is on its way to a 3 year low for number of players."
- Game is 6 years old (lot of games are long dead by this time)
- They changed almost all the big meta perks (which would drive some people to quit who were on the fence)
- MMR sucks. Literally everyone hates the implementation.
- There are no new game modes.
- There are two viable killers across all maps that can handle SWF teams.
- Items are in a terrible state of balance (See the video otz made)
- Efficient play makes both sides miserable.
- We need a complete rework of most of the map reworks. Seriously it's dumb that 4/5 of the farm maps are survivor sided. Crow & garden maps should just be turned off indefinitely. Reskin stranger things map and give us that back. All maps should be 9000m² or all killers should have a "sprint" movement activation with "E" that comes back after 45 seconds and is designed to rapidly move them across the map.
- Most loops are completely unfair for the majority of the killer cast so either we need fewer pallets per map or killers like pig should be able to dash attack and break the pallet. Imagine if Michael Myers could break pallets by swinging at them when in T3! To make this issue worse : Legion, Michael Myers , any potential future killer with a power movement adjustment through windows and Wesker got nerfed so they can't benefit from : fire up, Superior Anatomy, Bamboozle, etc to move through windows faster. Any blanket nerf that just moves "low rank" killers down a notch is just really really bad design.
- DBD has no real competition so they keep one side elated and the other side just barely miserable enough to keep playing. Otz is more frustrated than ever about playing killer with this patch that is supposed to be killer sided.
I could go on.....
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I don't think this low would be so bad if 6.1.0 actually tried to balance DbD and not just shake up the meta.
The old meta was just more interesting. I miss searching for Undying Ruin totems, I actually did enjoy searching for them and I ran Inner Strength.
Now I am afraid to tap a gen at the beginning of a game to check for Ruin because if the gen has a smidgeon of progress on it a killer can come by and trap the gen with Eruption and it will remain after the gen hits zero and never expire.
The new meta really sucks.
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-"Now I am afraid to tap a gen at the beginning of a game to check for Ruin because if the gen has a smidgeon of progress on it a killer can come by and trap the gen with Eruption and it will remain after the gen hits zero and never expire"
You might hate that but that's actually a very healthy change for the game. The gens still fly too fast however.
The problem with the new meta is that SWF fares so much batter against it than solo players. Pop worked against both equally. I often played against SWF teams and would run by a gen someone had to say 40%. I stopped chase vs someone popped the gen and then continued the chase. By the time I hooked that survivor (preferably near that generator) the generator might be to 60% so I just would pop it again.
Then I could camp that gen for just a bit and would be down to ~20% progress. Those were Good times.
"The new meta really sucks."
Yes it does. You basically need to use more gen regression perks than ever before even though they made gens take +10 seconds. The real problem is that almost all of the gen regression is countered if someone touches a generator after you kick it.
That was one of the things that made pop way more interesting to use was because the regression was an instant chase reward.
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Wow, why didn't I think of that? When I spawn on Azarov's or Suffocation Pit, it's not like a 3-gen is already set up :)
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"but that's actually a very healthy change for the game. The gens still fly too fast however."
I disagree. It makes it so a killer always gets value from Eruption and in fact the less progress a gen has the more likely they are to get Eruption value. It makes so killers can mindlessly kick gens, there is no "Should I bother kicking this gen?" decision.
If a gen hits zero it should not longer be affected by Eruption. I think that's the first change they should make to Eruption.
That one change alone would reduce the effectiveness of this 1 hour 3gen strategy the current meta enables.
I agree that old Pop was great, but it's a perk on a free character so it can't stay meta... just like Undying and Ruin. If you want meta slowdowns you have to buy Freddy, Sadako and Nemesis. I'm surprised they didn't destroy Pain Res more completely since it's an Artist perk.
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"there is no "Should I bother kicking this gen?" decision."
Actually that is a very smart game change to reverse the old mindset : I do not have gen perks therefore kicking gens is worthless.
"If a gen hits zero it should not longer be affected by Eruption."
No - the whole point is that it is a trap you set on a kicked gen.
"Pop was great, but it's a perk on a free character so it can't stay meta... just like Undying and Ruin. If you want meta slowdowns you have to buy Freddy, Sadako and Nemesis"
Yea this is really disgusting. Only one of Pinhead's perks has been in the shrine. Another was up for a vote but the community said no.
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part of the survivors responsibility is to not create a 3 gen in the first place. You misplayed for allowing it to happen and ar now penalised for it. just as many killers are penalised for allowing 3 gens on opposite sides of a map to occur.
Survivors really want zero consequences for their own misplays.
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If a generator hits zero, then the regression perk has already done its job.
Eruption should not be able to stay on a dead gen, have a survivor come up to it and start working on it while the killer gets looped for 90 seconds and still have it work on that gen.
If there was some way to tell that the dead gen was affected by Eruption (it could stay sparking) it wouldn't be nearly so bad. As it is now it is just a hidden, very frustrating and nigh-uncounterable cherry on top that gives it far too much synergy with Overcharge and Call of Brine.
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Explain exactly how the survivors could have prevented the 3gen in that video. Please be specific.
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