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Can we Nerf Windows of Opportunity?
Comments
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They can do that without a perk. This perk just helps them do that.
We should figure out why WoO is now so popular when it wasn't even after it's buff. Did 6.1.0 changes really shake up the chase meta that much to warrant WoO? Or do people just not have anything else to run? Did they figure out that planning your escape ahead of time was so good?
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WoO is taking the place of Iron Will pre-patch. For one Perk slot it allows you to be very strong in chase and still be able to use an exhaustion perk.
If we added a "pallet exhaustion" system where you only get 2 pallets that you can throw instantly before being hooked then WoO would see almost no use. Am I suggesting we add pallet exhaustion? No.
Either way you look at it - Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
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such an exhaustion would be about as stupid as killer's hit exhaustion.
Like this killer already had hit within last 30s so let's normalize and make him freeze for 10s after hit to normalize chases. Just plain stupid. It's bad enough we still have bloodlust. No need to "normalize" skilled interaction vs "I screwed up but want to win anyway" even more.
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WoO doesn't make you amazing at looping you still need to know what you're doing.
You can drop every pallet in the game, but if you don't finish gens by that point, then you're most likely gonna lose anyways.
I could agree with nerfing it's range. But giving it any sort of cooldown will just make it a bad perk again.
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-"It's bad enough we still have bloodlust."
Bloodlust is in the game because there are often RNG combinations of tiles that can make it nearly impossible for many killers to get a hit around very strong concentration of vaults/pallets. Bloodlust would be fair to remove if each tile in theory only had one possible tile it could chain together with and then there was a dead zone that needed to be crossed either because you just got hit or you used lithe or another exhaustion perk.
If you don't think Bloodlust belongs in DBD then you really don't have much of a concept of chase mechancs.
-"WoO doesn't make you amazing at looping you still need to know what you're doing"
And while this is true it seems rather clear that the very good players who use it are playing more efficiently. Windows allows players to finish a game with more of the pallets used.
This is where we can look at statistics. Take the top 5-10% of players and look at the average time of their chases. With one simple test you could determine if players who used Windows had a significant advantage in chases over players who did not.
But then we would run into a very simple statistics error with data collection. You were "chased" by the killer for a minute but that chase cut out three times. Another player was chased for 40 seconds with an unbroken chase. According to the statistics the second chase was "longer".
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Revert it to pre-buff and that should be enough. There are three reasons to use this perk
- Beginner players
- Spawns, what has and has not been used
- Brainless W keying
Of course the third reason was never intended to be a strong benefit of the perk and reverting it would help mitigate a good amount of that particular reason. People that truly use the perk every match for at least one of the other two reasons would not be affected by the perk being reverted.
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Some of the very best loopers use the perk too. You need to add that to your list.
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I really amaze me how people want to nerf that or that but how about adressing more important things what are even wrose problem than OP perks? But for not being that "guy" who derailed thread than I agree. Mostly. But if you´re not good at looping Windows of Oportunity. For me its ok from both points of view. Its still nothing so gamebreaking to be considered as something OP. If you can use it´s max potential it made you really really good and annoying, but even then its nor 100% escape from any chase. When I started to play with Windows of Oportunity I had to used to it. From all perks it seems like the best ballance between amount of info and handhalding.
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Windows facilitates the ability of one survivor to drop 4-6 pallets in a chase. That's not right. After about two pallets the killer should get a hit.
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I actually use deja vu as it helps with those three gen campers, it actually is one of the perks Otz recommends as well. So your argument over offence is null and void. Reality is, if you are a killer main and you are afraid of WOO you are afraid of the wrong perk. If you already know the maps, against why are you afraid of WOO. Only new killers would have issues with WOO, but any killer mains that played the game enough don't care one bit. You should be happy that WOO is used, as it means survivors are not running any other strong perks that can sway the match to the survivors' side, whether for gens speed, of exhaustion etc. I am a not strong killer, but I have 0 issues with WOO as I at least I know they will have less perks that would actually make a difference
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Windows of Opportunity isn't the problem. The problem is BHVR's map design is complete garbage and any half-competent survivor can drop enough safe pallets to evade any A-tier killer long enough that gens will fly. Windows of opportunity didn't make absurdly strong-filler pallets, BHVR did. Windows just exposes how bad the maps are. And they're pretty damn bad.
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Almost every killer perk that has been used "too much" has been nerfed because it was picked too often and lead to more wins.
Glad to see you're already backpedaling away from an untenable position by adding the 'it must actually provide a meaningful winrate increase' stipulation, but you're going to have to backpedal a bit more.
There's 31 killers in the game and only 1 survivor.
If a perk is good on that survivor, it is good on all survivors.
If a perk is good on a killer, that doesn't immediately mean it is also good on other killers. It also doesn't necessarily mean that perk is the top pick for other killers, as it may be outperformed by a perk that better synergises with their power.
That is, if the perk is balanced. If a perk is OP, it's much more likely to take the top pick spot for multiple killers, even if those other killers have picks that specifically synergise with them (Think Hoarder/Franklin's on Pinhead) and even if the perk itself doesn't necessarily synergise with them.
Basically, an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate. Consequence of an asymmetrical game.
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Most killers have blindness add-ons. Make use of them
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Sure. And killer must be forced to swap target if he does not get that survivor in 1 minute. Oops. There's thing like tunneling and sometimes 1 survivor should be able to use ALL map resources and even this being the case the game is not fair for him...
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LMAO people thinking they have long chases because of windows blows my mind,,,
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I think WoO should have its range reduced. 16 to 24 meters sounds fine to me.
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-"Glad to see you're already backpedaling"
I'm not actually. I'll offer a clarification : lead to a perception of more wins. If you scroll up you can re-read where I explain how their stats can easily be spoofed because of how the chase system works.
When NOED and RUIN were nerfed it was done as a result of "pickrate" more than anything else without even considering if it was effective. More important was the concept of "how does it make survivors feel" when they play against it. The same consideration is not given to killer. DS was allowed to be in a broken state for about 5 years. DH is still broken.
Do you deny:
Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
-"There's 31 killers in the game and only ...."
Nurse/Blight are viable. There fixed your sentence for you. If you'd like to disagree then how about I arrange a KYF game where you play against a team with ~25000 hours? They pick the map and your killer. No iri addons or items.
-"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
This is not logical and bordering on strawman. What was the dead hard pick rate before the shake up among good survivors? It was ~75% usage. Borrowed time had a similar pick rate among top level survivors but not quite that high.
There was no killer perk with a 75% pickrate ever other than the use of NOED in 2016 because it was literally the best perk in the entire history of the game (and there were fewer perks). If you had NOED then you used NOED. People that didn't use NOED were not using it because they did not have it yet.
Are you actually trying to make the argument:
A perk used by 35% of killers probably needs adjustment but a perk used by the top 75% of survivors is fine.
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Keep the range as it is until you throw two pallets. Then give it a 60 second cooldown where you see no auras.
When tournament level players bring windows so they can attempt to punish when a killer tunnels - this reveals there is a problem with the perk in that it can be far more effective than DS.
There was an argument years ago on the developer discord. It went something like this:
"IF I am skilled enough to loop the killer forever then I should be allowed to loop the killer forever".
The resulting mechanic from this conversation gave us Bloodlust - and not what we see today in game. You could break a pallet and keep bloodlust with the old "super Bloodlust".
If you balance the game around allowing a survivor to loop for an extra minute then you would also need to have perks that regularly extend the length of multiple generators by 1 minute.
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61% killrate. No. U don't need to nerf survs even more
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It's amazing that a perk that doesn't actually affect killer, doesn't buff survivors and only gives info to make survivors play better.
Killers hate the perk and think it's OP. This is so sad
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This is a weird request.
WoO isn't really that strong and there are better perks that should be looked at first.
Then again, Self Care isn't that good either.
######### it, let's nerf it.
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The perk would not be a problem if we had fair maps. We do not have fair maps and the perk therefore allows the survivor to game the system vs M1 killers.
The solution to the problem for a killer player is to only play Nurse/Blight. Is that what you want?
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Self Care already got nerfed in the 6.0 perk shakeup.
Historically Self Care required exactly the same time for your team if travel time were zero. If travel time were greater than zero this made old self care more efficient than an ally healing you.
Nice bait and switch though.
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That's a map problem not the perk.
The perk didn't make you spawn in garden of joy or fractured cowshed.
So leave the perk that helps survivors in the most fun part of the game alone.
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whatever helps you cope :)
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It's a problem when a perk makes an existing unfair map situation worse.
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Why do you care if survivors play better on the map. The map is still the same, the survivor with WOO and a survivor without WOO but knows the map tiles and RNG will play the map similar.
Its a fun perk for survivor, helps them in chases, the perk doesn't give survivor any benefit. Leave this accessibility perk alone and you try and improve in your gameplay, because that survivor has one less perk to hit you
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Survivors have a few problematic perks and Windows is not one of them.
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I could have said the same thing about eruption pre nerf.
It encouraged killers to go for chases because they had a reasonable chance to down someone and protect their generator.
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I disagree, I think Eruption was the most unhealthy slowdown perk since the old old Ruin, it encouraged killers to take completely stupid chases and get value from it, especially against people without comms and even with comms it wasn't always possible to outplay it. Also incapacitated effect is just too obnoxious to verse to be on a perk that easily activatable and especially lasting for 25 seconds. Better example of a perk combo that encouraged killers to go for chases was Ruin Undying but sadly Ruin got completely gutted.
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I agree that the inability to do anything for 25 seconds was "not fun" and punished solo players.
Why not just make the perk prevent the affected generators from being able to be touched for 30 seconds? The perk still rewards chases and helps protect generators.
Every perk that has encouraged the killer to do something other than tunnel gets nerfed into the ground.
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I'm not actually. I'll offer a clarification : lead to a perception of more wins. If you scroll up you can re-read where I explain how their stats can easily be spoofed because of how the chase system works.
Of course, stats being inaccurate only works in a way that favours your argument and never against it.
When NOED and RUIN were nerfed it was done as a result of "pickrate" more than anything else without even considering if it was effective.
No, NOED needed a rework because it was garbage game design, and Ruin was actually really powerful. That's not to say Ruin didn't get overnerfed, but it did deserve a nerf.
The same consideration is not given to killer.
No, because killers, such as yourself, blow a gasket over literally anything but are mum about the stuff that is -actually- unfun to play against. You don't get what you want because what you want is for the game to be broken beyond belief.
Do you deny:
Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
Yes. Obviously.
Because anything done by a survivor with Windows of Opportunity can also be done by a survivor without it. Objectively, Windows is not the problem there. It makes it easier, sure, but it's objectively weaker than a huge number of nigh pointless survivor perks.
What you are complaining about will not be solved with the removal of Windows of Opportunity. You will still get pallet-slammed. You will still get taken from pallet to pallet.
Nurse/Blight are viable. There fixed your sentence for you. If you'd like to disagree then how about I arrange a KYF game where you play against a team with ~25000 hours? They pick the map and your killer. No iri addons or items.
Jeeze, dude, if you don't want to engage with the argument, just say nothing at all instead of taking a hard left turn into a completely different territory to have a different, completely unrelated whinge.
Are you actually trying to make the argument:
A perk used by 35% of killers probably needs adjustment but a perk used by the top 75% of survivors is fine.
"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
Spec-effing-tacular.
You really are the new Lord_Tony/Killer Sluzzy. Except even Sluzzy's arguments are better than yours.
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Most of killer players be like " Mama if it's not slowing / blocking gens i'm not interested ,, Ok ? "
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-"No, NOED needed a rework because it was garbage game design"
Here we can agree because DBD has a garbage game design. NOED used to be the great equalizer in that you were hard to get for the entire game and then it was "revenge time". If you want to make it so that M1 killers get downs like Nurse/Blight (very quickly) and NOED is weak - fine.
What is completely unacceptable is to keep weak killers in a pathetic state of balance. Why should I play any killer besides Nurse/Blight if those are the only fair killers?
-"killers, such as yourself, blow a gasket over literally anything but are mum about the stuff that is -actually- unfun to play against."
I have always asked for the game to be fair to both sides. The problem is that a large number of people want the game to favor their side at the expense of the other.
"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
As I said before- there are no killer perks with a 75% pick rate. Dead Hard of course still has a near 75% pick rate in top tier games.
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Let me sketch out how the conversation is going right now:
"Can we nerf X?"
"No, X is not a problem."
"But it's got a high pickrate and killer perks with high pickrates often get nerfed!"
"Pickrates work differently for survivors and killers."
"But Y got nerfed for its high pickrate!"
"Actually, it got nerfed because it was terrible game design."
"But some killers are weak!"
?????
"Also, Z used to have a really high pickrate (before it was nerfed), so why can't we nerf X? (Which has a lower pickrate)"
??????????
Are you actually here to talk about Windows of Opportunity or are you just venting in bulk?
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It is worth taking away their strongest perk from the survivors, they immediately shout this is a weak perk, no need to nerf it, it is balanced. Your swf uses this perk a lot more than you think.
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"Hypothetically they dont need it" was used for a reason, it seems like everyone just ignores that.
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That might be your take on the conversation.
The windows buff allows the very best players to loop better.
Iron Will did the same thing and had an almost identical pick rate.
You can say whatever you like but both of these are true statements.
Windows might be fine in a world where the pallets follow the Scott Jund dream patch notes and all maps are 9000m² or smaller. Nerf windows until these things are true and then when we have reached that map utopia - restore windows to what it does now.
I would be perfectly ok with that.
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100% agreed. The perk is called ''Windows of Opportunity'' not ''Pallets of Opportunity'' this perk is almost a wallhack for survivors, really stupid
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I'm still kind of confused why it got buffed even more then it did. I thought it was fine having a cool-down. It helped you in chase until you got value and then you were on your own for awhile. I constantly see it being used. It's almost like double-triple buffing stuff in a row is a bad idea. It definitely could use the treatment Eruption just got. Then again a lot of things could...
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Nothing Windows of Opportunity does allows survivors to accomplish anything they couldn't without the perk.
Iron Will took away the killer's ability to track by sound.
They are radically different with Iron Will being far, far more impactful.
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That's an opinion - and one I do not agree with.
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-"so what? It tells you where the pallets are. So your problem is the maps, not the pallets themselves."
Being able to see where all the pallets are increases your ability to loop efficiently. If this were not the case then no one would use Windows.
Overall I would say the mechanics of pallet stuns were a lot more fair in 2016 as they required a skill shot to time the stun correctly. If you mistimed the event then you got hit and stunned (this happened a lot back in 2016 because there was a delay before the stun AND the hitbox was massively smaller).
Pallets as a whole are fine when a map has ~8 pallets. But some maps have 11-14 and there is one with 25 pallets.
It might be interesting if we had steel and wooden pallets. Steel pallets take the current pallet duration to break and stun for longer but take longer to pull down. Wooden pallets are faster to drop but get smashed in one kick (and give stun like the killer has endurance).
Overall I would say no the pallet situation is not "ok".
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So you want to punish the tunneled instead of the tunneler? Wow
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Knowing where pallets are is powerful. I think this would be fine if you didn't see all the pallets on half the dang map all at once which lets survivors chain them together endlessly without hesitation or doubt. Which is why I want the range decreased, so it only shows what's in the immediate vicinity. If you want WoO to have a big range, run it with Open Hand.
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Yeah, knowing where pallets are is somewhat powerful. Thing is? Everyone knows where the majority of pallets are, knowing how maps generate generally lets you know where pallets will be just by looking, Windows just makes it easier for noobs to know where pallets are as well. The big part is actually playing those pallets and not dropping them.
And are you and OP actually complaining about someone basically gamethrowing by pre-dropping every pallet in the match? That leads to Killer victories 90% of the time except in tournament squads (which are the minority and should not be balanced around), why do people think the "Meghead" meme exists?
Like, it's so obvious to just drop chase or get 2 pallets out of them if the Survivor is playing this way. You're evidently inflexible and unable to switch targets, a very basic Killer tactic, or exploit Survivor playstyles if this in particular is your reasoning.
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Windows just makes it easier for noobs to know where pallets are as well.
And yet so many experienced players are still running the perk. Strange.
And are you and OP actually complaining about someone basically gamethrowing by pre-dropping every pallet in the match?
Last i heard this was actually optimal play because there's like 40 pallets on every map these days which is plenty to slow down a killer so they don't need to take risks and can pre-drop everything, then zoom off to the next pallet as soon as the killer even starts to catch up. It is far from throwing the game.
Like, it's so obvious to just drop chase or get 2 pallets out of them if the Survivor is playing this way. You're evidently inflexible and unable to switch targets, a very basic Killer tactic, or exploit Survivor playstyles if this in particular is your reasoning.
Now you're just insulting me, thanks for that. If every single survivor is playing this way, which is not uncommon in my experiences, then dropping chase to move on to the next survivor doesn't make a difference. By the time they all run out of pallets, the game is pretty much over.
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You're aware that the second part is actually playing those pallets correctly, right? Not just knowing where they are? A good looper is going to have a general idea where pallets are except for special, rarely used pallets. You're still going to get outplayed by a good looper regardless of WoO, sorry about that.
And then, in that case, the source of your complaints are certain maps specifically. Which means the focus of this topic should be on maps... and not blaming perks. But to stay on topic, nerfing WoO absolutely will not fix your problem, since those 25 pallets are very visible if we both have the same map in mind and you're still going to lose to good loopers on this map.
Generally, the two actual reasons for why you would want to run WoO is:
- You're new and don't know where the pallets are yet. Which is fine, WoO doesn't help you play pallets themselves and throwing down pallets instantly will throw the game unless you're in a squad or the Killer is newer than you.
- You're experienced but don't want to miss pallets. Which is also fine, since you're typically going to know where all the pallets are to begin with and you're most likely going to know where basically all of the pallets are without WoO. You can play pallets somewhat decently already and you knowing where lesser used pallets are isn't going to matter if the Killer can't outplay you at pallets.
Interesting pallet idea though.
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So what if they are using it? Are you saying experienced players using this perk is a problem in itself? Taking off WoO might prevent less experienced players from knowing where lesser used pallets are, but that's it. You're still going to lose to them without WoO.
And it's only optimal to pre-drop in tournament squads, which I mentioned, but now I see how you do things. Plus that "40 pallets" thing, if people actually say that about every map nowadays, is a small amount of maps... I don't think you shouldn't be kicking every pallet on those specific maps anyways, I know that's not how one deals with The Game off the top of my head...
And calling you inflexible because you evidently don't want to switch targets is insulting you? Do you think I should not call out people when they try to defend not wanting to outplay the issue?
If all 4 Survivors are pre-dropping pallets and refusing to play them, they will lose on the majority of maps. They will run out of pallets to use and die as a result. Keep shoving people off of gens and switching targets if you've figured out this is the type of team and you will burn through their resources, that's how DBD works to begin with.
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Are you saying experienced players using this perk is a problem in itself?
The problem is the perk. Period.
And calling you inflexible because you evidently don't want to switch targets is insulting you? Do you think I should not call out people when they try to defend not wanting to outplay the issue?
You've dismissed everything I've said by just calling me bad at the game. Yeah, that's insulting me. "Call out", yeah right.
If all 4 Survivors are pre-dropping pallets and refusing to play them, they will lose on the majority of maps. They will run out of pallets to use and die as a result.
They won't run out, not before they get all the generators done, especially not on these new maps that have pallets on strong loops everywhere that are nearly impossible to play around with most killers. Any time they touch up a map at all they add more pallets to it. And they have plenty of other resources on top of the pallets too, Boons, items, Dead Hard, etc. etc. which just compounds the problem. And even when you do exhaust pallets, WoO tell survivors where the pallets aren't anymore, too, which makes it a lot easier for them to avoid the deadzones they created and stick to strong tiles. Which is the whole reason I want its range reduced, so that they can't make make the most optimal decision at all times because of the huge amount of information it gives them.
"Just chase survivors." I can't when they're chaining every single pallet and loop together in a perfect run. "Just pressure them off gens." How, if I can't chase them? There is no pressure. You cut off one chase to check gens and the guy you ditched goes and hops on a gen themselves. Then you're back to square one with nothing accomplished. The only way this could work is to camp a 3-gen and break all the pallets around it, and even that won't work most of the time, and it sure won't be enjoyable even if it does.
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