Noticing a Trend...

caipt
caipt Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 657

BHVR seems to favor adding machanics to just remove strategies altogether instead of actually solving the issues that cause them. Camping doesnt exist now, but you can still just tunnel them off hook once they self unhook. Basekit BT is fine because it doesnt remove tunneling, it just adds the chance for counterplay. We saw this in the basekit unbreakable PTB as well; slugging is unfun? well now its just gone. Granted that one didnt go through but it does show that tendency to just remove a mechanic or strategy instead of solving its issues. Even shows in the recent SM rework. Fixed none of her core design problems and just made her 3gen impossible. Now, she's still antiloop nonsense but now her antiloop will injure you for daring to stay at the loop. Still badly designed, still unfun to face, except at least now the game will end in under 30mins.

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Comments

  • Kius
    Kius Member Posts: 140

    At this point who cares.. they destroyed gen defense perks but leaving 2 and 1 of them gives decent value when the gen is almost completed.. and the other has 4 uses..

    Just focus one survivor quick if you want to win if the survivors are decent/good..

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    The one that has 4 uses removes up to 100% of gen progress, the one before had 15 % each use, and when you think about it with how weirdly spread scorge hooks are it might be stronger currently for several reasons.

    1. 15% is about 13-14 seconds which is not at lot considering the time it might take you to reach a scorge hook, so often times it would not even be worth it to go for the scorge.
    2. You will not always get a scorge hook because they might be out of reach, so assuming you catch one for like 60-70% of hooks only with 7 and above hooks on scorge hooks the old version was stronger and that really didnt happen often as it was quite inconsistend to run. Now you only need to get 4 in total.

    Between 7 and 12 hooks is basically where it was better, if you ever go for 12 hooks then probably hook 11 and 12 dont do much anyway because then there is one survivor left so who cares about it. And you go for like 8-9 hooks in total like most people do then it makes barely a difference at all and might be even worse because you spend so much time running to those scorges you could just have spend getting to chases faster.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Flashlights were really good against Hag, I would not call it a nerf. You could delete 20+ traps with a flashlight, even mid chase, you underestimate how much impact they had.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,509

    It takes 2 seconds to set a trap and 3.5 seconds to wipe the trap away. Not to mention survivors still have to approach the trap crouched, because otherwise they trigger the trap.

    Not to mention survivors can still trigger the traps while you are too far away or carrying a survivor where you can't teleport to the trap.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    You cannot do it mid chase and it was way faster?? Even now most of the time it is probably the better choice to just trigger them with running through since it is more time efficient. Also it is not quicker than setting... Setting time is 2 seconds without addons and whiping time is 3.5 seconds...

  • kisfenkin
    kisfenkin Member Posts: 619

    It is very clearly beneficial to camp and tunnel. There might be a laundry list of causes, but tunneling/killing the hooked survivor is the goal so I hope that when you release this to live servers you pay attention to how easily it will be abused.

    In the case of a camping killer, speeding up the unhook with this change also speeds up the tunneling. Speeding up the survivor loss.

    Please, don't think that the PTB is going to give you valid data on this, the people testing this on the PTB are going to use this the way you intended it, not exploiting the flaw but waiting out all timers instead. Solo queue will not use this the way you intended. It will be an enormous buff to tunneling there.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    You don't need to immediatly unhook though? You can get the free unhook and then only do it 1 second before entering stage 2? Then get chased for another 20-30 seconds minimum, get carried to hook again, 15 seconds and then have another stage, and in the meantime noone else needs to get off of a gen to come get you. This change will make facecamping much weaker, the impact on proxy camping however... well...

  • kisfenkin
    kisfenkin Member Posts: 619

    Why would they wait it out? Unless they are SWF they have absolutely no obligation to sit on the hook and max their boldness only to get killed anyway.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Out of spite for the killer and to make him get max a 1 k maybe? Also it increases their chance of survival as well.

  • Predated
    Predated Member Posts: 2,976

    I really think that the biggest issue that exists with camping, is the fact that killers can get huge rewards for doing so, and often feel like they get punished when they dont camp.

    I am personally of the opinion to not only place a slight punishment on camping (if you are exceeding the 10 second timer of what the game considers camping, disable the killer's ability and give all survivors entering the camped survivor enduring), but also reward killers who pick up a new chase with survivors who havent recently been on a hook (lets say, 60 seconds or survivors who have done a conspicious action) by giving them bloodlust the instant the new chase starts, 20% decreased stun times and 20% decreased obstacle breaking times. The bloodlust being disabled after 20 seconds of chase, but increase it by 10 seconds if they manage to get a basic attack in(special attacks are generally easier to hit). Heck, give them an initial 10% movementspeed the moment they hook someone so they can rush back into action.

    Right now, hooking a survivor is a moment where killer momentum is dead if you dont have a mobility killer. Just punishing an action doesnt hurt all killers equally, but giving a benefit that gives all killers more equal footing will help combat camping a lot more

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,775

    But why wouldn't they just kill themselves on the hook anyway in the status quo?

    If the survivor sees themselves being camped, and they have no interest in enduring it, right now they can just suicide right away.

    Even if you are right, at least with this change there would be some time where they wait until the meter is full, and then have a little bit of a chase.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,121

    What if they spawn on garden of joy and abuse the two main building windows?

  • Dogma_loki
    Dogma_loki Member Posts: 436

    I will sit there on hook and waste every possible second of that killers time if he decides to face camp. Enjoy your 1k.

    Overly altruistic survivors are why so many bad killers think they're good until they get pummeled by a good SWF that know how to counter them.

    Then usually they jump on the forums and cry about how OP survivors and SWF's are.

  • Chaosrider
    Chaosrider Member Posts: 489

    Killers still defending "strategies" in 2023 ... dbd in a nutshell.

  • Meghead56
    Meghead56 Member Posts: 19

    "As a hag main" and you still don't know that putting trap is faster than wiping it.


    To the facecamp mechanic. I think it's going better way as I've been noticed in PTB. Basement Bubba isn't going away either. They now just stand outside of basement.

    Skull Merchant. Now I give her new chance when obnoxious 3 gen is gone.

  • HamsterEnjoyer
    HamsterEnjoyer Member Posts: 711

    Yeah I dropped her when they released the nerf im not going to play a killer whos entire existence is just to get punked around by survivors with half a brain.

  • CatnipLove
    CatnipLove Member Posts: 1,006

    The majority of low MMR survivors are stuck dealing with hook camping constantly, as bad killers usually do absolutely nothing else, by default. They don't get forced into it, they just do it to the first survivor they meet at five gens. If this makes playing survivor more fun for casuals/new players then it will be beneficial for maintaining more of the casual survivors that get turned off by all the hook camping that infests lower MMR.

    Unless there is some bs exploit discovered, the update is great. The discussion on what people are experiencing in the PTB isn't laced with hysterics, so I can only assume it's going well, so far.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Isn't the whole thing about Hag same as Trapper that your traps are not supposed to be visible so you can catch survivors off guard? That still works the same way, Hag was already countered before by one person that does nothing but follow the hag destroying all her traps, I don't think that has been changed in any way, crouching and whiping it away might be the safer but also far slower version that can get easily punished if you are close by, because when they are in the radius they will probably trigger it while running away from you or loose a lot of distance if they try to crouch out of it.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,775

    Pallet stuns - no, they're not. If they just took away stuns with no other changes, the game would be less engaging for the killer. It might feel better at first, but it wouldn't be.

    Exit gate camping - I think EGC should start the moment the 5th gen is finished, so yeah.

    Genrushing - It's much harder of a thing to change then something like hook camping. There's no way to address it without making balance changes, which may or may not be needed, but that's a different issue.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,445

    You need to crouch to disarm the traps. The reason she got nerfed was a byproduct of the Wraith buff

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,126
    edited September 2023

    If I still have to be mindful of not being too close or not being above or below a hooked Survivor because I clearly am face camping in such scenarios, then I might as well just slug. Hooking feels more like a chore if this gets pushed to live without tweaks

  • caipt
    caipt Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 657

    c

    whats that I hear? someone who didnt even understand the post commenting? who could have guessed. I never defended camping, in fact I said I LIKED that the change was implemented even if I find the implementation half baked. Maybe you could.... oh, I don't know, understand the post before you comment.

  • caipt
    caipt Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 657

    I know that, I dont really ever camp outside endgame anyways. I'm just done with BHVR removing mechanics and strategies by force instead of fixing actual game design problems.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Hot take, what if the ability to face camp is the actual design issue? Not that hard to imagine right...

  • Huge_Bush
    Huge_Bush Member Posts: 5,388

    Don’t forget stealthy Survivors aren’t fun since they prevent the killer from engaging them. Don’t the Devs want players to be engaged? When are they going to give the killers a base kit mechanic to reveal survivors that haven’t engaged them?

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,742

    The PTB testing infinite unbreakable was not because of 'slugging isn't fun'. That PTB was testing the finisher Mori system, where slugging survivors was literally a game winning strategy.

    It doesn't take much consideration to think that if you added finisher Mori from that PTB *without* some way for survivors to deal with slugging, that the core game would fundamentally change and hooks would become completely useless. Every single killer would just slug survivors for the win instead. It would be much faster than tunneling, the current 'efficient' strategy.

    And even with infinite unbreakable in that test, there were still games where the killer was able to slug all 4 survivors in under 3 minutes to win the game with 0 hooks.

    Infinite unbreakable was a bad idea. And the finisher Mori from that PTB was an even worse idea. Neither one should see the light of day ever again.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Perhaps if you get slugged for over a minute or something like that? When it is somewhat obvious you won't get picked up again? But not speed increase as the perk added back then.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,742

    I still think the problem was the unlimited uses, not speed.

    The entire game revolves around survivor resources being limited and finite, from pallets and chests to medkits. And the only way to 'infinitely' do anything requires another survivor to assist.

    I'm generally opposed to adding any perk as 'base kit' to the game. I think my one exception to that right now is that shadowborn should be an accessibility slider option.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    it is not really unlimited, since your time on the floor is limited before you bleed out, so you can only use it that often...

    I think it is a bad argument to say perks as base kit. You don't get a perk, you get a base mechanic. What BHVR did for a long time was just add perks for problems that should have been in the base kit all along, because first of all not every player has access to all perks and then again it really limits perk variety if you are basically required to use a certain perk otherwise you're basically throwing. Which was a big issue before they introduced endurance after unhook. The problem there was that you could not know if someone has borrowed time and if you do they might not be able to get the survivor in time. And then you basically farmed someone off of hook because you did not really have a choice, as they would go 2nd stage anyway otherwise.

    This mechanic similar to the facecamping one right now focus on quite the same issue, removing the ability of a player to play the game. And since stuff similar to that already kind of worked to prevent the issue in some form I think it is fine to just use that instead of figure out something completely new or more complex, those changes can come earlier and if they don't work out as planned they can still figure out something new.

  • caipt
    caipt Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 657

    I disagree. From my perspective, the finisher mori ptb came about from thinking of how to make slugging more fun/less of an issue in certain situations. At which their only real option would be to let you pick yourself up, which obviously called for killer buffs in the form of the finisher mori. I could be wrong but without direct dev confirmation there isnt a realistic way to tell.

    Only nurse and blight were remotely capable of downing all 4 survivors within 45 seconds, and its a massive stretch without many many survivor mistakes or having everyone injured previously. Even then the UB buff on the ptb made that timer 22.5s. I feel like basekit unbreakable definitely came from wanting to "solve" slugging, witht the finisher mori being a "necessary" byproduct.

  • caipt
    caipt Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 657

    but tht base mechanic is a perk. hence basekit perk, which is lazy as opposed to actually fixing game design flaws.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Not really, BT didn't give you haste and the self unhook might seem similar to deliverance, but only because you unhook yourself so if that's all the similarity then what? Is it basically the same as 4%? It is still a better fix then nothing for now and if it works that's fine... Sure fixing game design flaws would be great but if they add features that help with those problems that are not bound to perks that's great, because that has been a huge problem.

  • Krazzik
    Krazzik Member Posts: 2,475

    But facecamping didn't really add anything to the game, it was near-universally hated and just made people miserable. The -only- time it has a place is in endgame, which is still allowed. It's okay to essentially just remove stuff if it's bad for the game.

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 2,417

    There is a lot of aura reading perks, Ultimate Weapon is very popular atm.

  • Huge_Bush
    Huge_Bush Member Posts: 5,388

    Yea, but there’s nothing basekit and killers shouldn’t have to feel forced to take perks in just likes survivors shouldn’t when it co es to camping, tunneling and potentially slugging. They should be able to go in with fun builds without having to worry about facing boring strategies like how survivors should have to worry about being bored on the hook.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,742
    edited September 2023

    Your first premise is not correct. They've already announced that infinite unbreakable is completely scrapped and will not go live, but the finisher Mori will be revisited and return in another form for testing in the future.

    The infinite unbreakable was their first solution to the problem of killers just slugging for the 4k every game at 5 gens they were creating with the finisher Mori. It was most certainly not the other way around.

    Edit: clarification, spelling.

    Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on
  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 2,417

    just patrol gens?

    I think i have had 1 game in my around 800-900 hours as killer where i could not find any survivors.

    when you have progress on a gen, its a good indicator that someone is near.

    Also Discordance, Gearhead and Tinkerer are good to find out where they are.

    Also, i dont think spending 1 perk on some kind of information perk destroys the fun, but you can always play nemisis if you dont want to do that, and use zombies for information.

    While I think that slow moving killers needs a buff, i do also think that basekit aura reading is too OP.

  • Huge_Bush
    Huge_Bush Member Posts: 5,388
    edited September 2023

    Survivors didn’t need any perks to counter camping (and tunneling) they just needed teamwork (unless it was Bubbi Boi, who should have been changed). Instead they got basekit BT, hook grabs removed and now the new anti-camp deliverance. They also had plenty of perks to help them.

    If the devs cared for the “player experience”, they should show the same courtesy to killers that they have shown to survivors. It just seems that there is a double standard that it’s okay to cater to bad survivors and improve their experience by dumbing down the game but it’s not okay to do so for bad killers.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    How exactly do you prevent hitting the guy that gets unhooked without bt to instantly go down right after unhook? do you want 3 people there to block every side of the hook? That would be massive pressure for the killer for basically every single unhook, also when playing soloq having that coordination is rather hard so it is completely fine to have endurance after unhook, if you don't intend to tunnel it won't bother you anyway, unless the guy bodybocks in which case you can tunnel him right after the endurance runs out. Perks are never a good solution for such problems since they are not available to everyone and limit the variation.

    Killers had many quality of life changes over the years? What exactly are you talking about?

    This whole mentality that the developers would only care about one side is the dumbest thing ever, you guys just see what you want to see and ignore all the changes that the side you feel disadvantaged got.

  • totallynotamegmain
    totallynotamegmain Member Posts: 658
    edited September 2023

    question: does the survivor still get the self unhook progress if there is another survivor near the hook? Aka their team is rushing for a save, would it stop them from getting a self unhook just because im trying to stop them from rushing to save them? If it stops it then it shouldn’t be top much of a problem mechanic depending on the range (i could see range being an issue for gen guarding or multi floor maps). However if it dosent then i see a future of this mechanic being abused to ######### by SWF

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    The person being camped isn't getting to play the game. They derive zero enjoyment from seeing other people play the game while they sit there on the hook and the killer just stares at them.

    I don't understand why you're advocating for camping to remain a valid tactic when it adds nothing to the game. There are a thousand reasons and then some for why someone might choose to camp. You don't need to camp to create pressure.