Noticing a Trend...
BHVR seems to favor adding machanics to just remove strategies altogether instead of actually solving the issues that cause them. Camping doesnt exist now, but you can still just tunnel them off hook once they self unhook. Basekit BT is fine because it doesnt remove tunneling, it just adds the chance for counterplay. We saw this in the basekit unbreakable PTB as well; slugging is unfun? well now its just gone. Granted that one didnt go through but it does show that tendency to just remove a mechanic or strategy instead of solving its issues. Even shows in the recent SM rework. Fixed none of her core design problems and just made her 3gen impossible. Now, she's still antiloop nonsense but now her antiloop will injure you for daring to stay at the loop. Still badly designed, still unfun to face, except at least now the game will end in under 30mins.
Comments
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The new system won't remove camping as a whole (at least that's not the idea). They just don't want you standing next to the hook for 60 seconds straight.
Also I don't get how the basekit Unbreakable thing supports your argument when they realized the effect it would have on slugging and scrapped it.
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Because of the matchmaking and map issues, most games are already becoming just a pallet tour or repairing gen at this point. Only occasionally there is an interesting match where you fight to the death with an expert brite or nurse.
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To set expectations realistically, I think the major flaw with this is that there isn't one single reason why people camp. If you ask ten people why they camped, you would get ten different answers. One person might say it's because the Survivors were being overly altruistic. Another might say that they did it because there weren't many generators left and they just wanted to secure a kill. Or camp someone specifically because they had a long chase and the Killer was frustrated. Someone might even do it just because they felt like it.
Even if we addressed every possible reason someone might camp, you'd still be left with some folks who do it just because they can and because they want to. That's assuming we even can or should fix every possible reason, though. In the case that the Killer decides to camp someone who was hard to catch, we can't exactly punish the Survivor for playing well - that's not even remotely fair. Sure, we can continue fine tuning balance to make sure that the reason why they're hard to catch isn't because they got lucky or brought strong stuff, but even if the game were perfectly balanced, one person will always be able to outplay another.
But no matter what the reason may be, the outcome is still the same. It's not fun for the person being camped to have to sit there until they eventually die with no opportunity for them to counter it. This goes beyond something being strong or one sided, it prevents someone from being able to play the game at all from that point on, and it's something we still need to address. We simply cannot turn a blind eye to a major issue until we've systematically dealt with every item on the laundry list of reasons someone might give for camping.
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At this point who cares.. they destroyed gen defense perks but leaving 2 and 1 of them gives decent value when the gen is almost completed.. and the other has 4 uses..
Just focus one survivor quick if you want to win if the survivors are decent/good..
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The one that has 4 uses removes up to 100% of gen progress, the one before had 15 % each use, and when you think about it with how weirdly spread scorge hooks are it might be stronger currently for several reasons.
- 15% is about 13-14 seconds which is not at lot considering the time it might take you to reach a scorge hook, so often times it would not even be worth it to go for the scorge.
- You will not always get a scorge hook because they might be out of reach, so assuming you catch one for like 60-70% of hooks only with 7 and above hooks on scorge hooks the old version was stronger and that really didnt happen often as it was quite inconsistend to run. Now you only need to get 4 in total.
Between 7 and 12 hooks is basically where it was better, if you ever go for 12 hooks then probably hook 11 and 12 dont do much anyway because then there is one survivor left so who cares about it. And you go for like 8-9 hooks in total like most people do then it makes barely a difference at all and might be even worse because you spend so much time running to those scorges you could just have spend getting to chases faster.
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Why is limiting the killer's agency and ability to create pressure outside of chase the best option? Why not create more altruistic options for teammates to engauge in for providing the oppurtunity instead of just giving it for free?
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Its part of a new system I think where they just dumb everything down. New SM is much more dumbed down version of old one if you play her as chase merchant, new Sadako is a much more dumbed down version of old Sadako, Hag had to be nerfed because new players just couldn't figure out to crouch or use flashlights on her traps, they clearly don't want anything to be too 'hard' on players so they're focusing on making everything so simple a 5 year old can play idk why
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Flashlights were really good against Hag, I would not call it a nerf. You could delete 20+ traps with a flashlight, even mid chase, you underestimate how much impact they had.
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No as a Hag main I knew very well the impact they had but making it so everybody can just wipe away a trap quicker than you can set them wasn't the way to go. "You could delete 20+ with a flashlight!" You can delete an infinite amount now so?
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It takes 2 seconds to set a trap and 3.5 seconds to wipe the trap away. Not to mention survivors still have to approach the trap crouched, because otherwise they trigger the trap.
Not to mention survivors can still trigger the traps while you are too far away or carrying a survivor where you can't teleport to the trap.
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You cannot do it mid chase and it was way faster?? Even now most of the time it is probably the better choice to just trigger them with running through since it is more time efficient. Also it is not quicker than setting... Setting time is 2 seconds without addons and whiping time is 3.5 seconds...
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It is very clearly beneficial to camp and tunnel. There might be a laundry list of causes, but tunneling/killing the hooked survivor is the goal so I hope that when you release this to live servers you pay attention to how easily it will be abused.
In the case of a camping killer, speeding up the unhook with this change also speeds up the tunneling. Speeding up the survivor loss.
Please, don't think that the PTB is going to give you valid data on this, the people testing this on the PTB are going to use this the way you intended it, not exploiting the flaw but waiting out all timers instead. Solo queue will not use this the way you intended. It will be an enormous buff to tunneling there.
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You don't need to immediatly unhook though? You can get the free unhook and then only do it 1 second before entering stage 2? Then get chased for another 20-30 seconds minimum, get carried to hook again, 15 seconds and then have another stage, and in the meantime noone else needs to get off of a gen to come get you. This change will make facecamping much weaker, the impact on proxy camping however... well...
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Why would they wait it out? Unless they are SWF they have absolutely no obligation to sit on the hook and max their boldness only to get killed anyway.
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Out of spite for the killer and to make him get max a 1 k maybe? Also it increases their chance of survival as well.
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I really think that the biggest issue that exists with camping, is the fact that killers can get huge rewards for doing so, and often feel like they get punished when they dont camp.
I am personally of the opinion to not only place a slight punishment on camping (if you are exceeding the 10 second timer of what the game considers camping, disable the killer's ability and give all survivors entering the camped survivor enduring), but also reward killers who pick up a new chase with survivors who havent recently been on a hook (lets say, 60 seconds or survivors who have done a conspicious action) by giving them bloodlust the instant the new chase starts, 20% decreased stun times and 20% decreased obstacle breaking times. The bloodlust being disabled after 20 seconds of chase, but increase it by 10 seconds if they manage to get a basic attack in(special attacks are generally easier to hit). Heck, give them an initial 10% movementspeed the moment they hook someone so they can rush back into action.
Right now, hooking a survivor is a moment where killer momentum is dead if you dont have a mobility killer. Just punishing an action doesnt hurt all killers equally, but giving a benefit that gives all killers more equal footing will help combat camping a lot more
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But why wouldn't they just kill themselves on the hook anyway in the status quo?
If the survivor sees themselves being camped, and they have no interest in enduring it, right now they can just suicide right away.
Even if you are right, at least with this change there would be some time where they wait until the meter is full, and then have a little bit of a chase.
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What if they spawn on garden of joy and abuse the two main building windows?
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I will sit there on hook and waste every possible second of that killers time if he decides to face camp. Enjoy your 1k.
Overly altruistic survivors are why so many bad killers think they're good until they get pummeled by a good SWF that know how to counter them.
Then usually they jump on the forums and cry about how OP survivors and SWF's are.
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Killers still defending "strategies" in 2023 ... dbd in a nutshell.
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I guess it does remove facecamping outside endgame as a strategy but doing that is a terrible idea anyway and will usually make you lose. They're not removing it because it's OP, it's not, they're removing it because it's unfun for the survivors.
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"As a hag main" and you still don't know that putting trap is faster than wiping it.
To the facecamp mechanic. I think it's going better way as I've been noticed in PTB. Basement Bubba isn't going away either. They now just stand outside of basement.
Skull Merchant. Now I give her new chance when obnoxious 3 gen is gone.
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Yeah I dropped her when they released the nerf im not going to play a killer whos entire existence is just to get punked around by survivors with half a brain.
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The majority of low MMR survivors are stuck dealing with hook camping constantly, as bad killers usually do absolutely nothing else, by default. They don't get forced into it, they just do it to the first survivor they meet at five gens. If this makes playing survivor more fun for casuals/new players then it will be beneficial for maintaining more of the casual survivors that get turned off by all the hook camping that infests lower MMR.
Unless there is some bs exploit discovered, the update is great. The discussion on what people are experiencing in the PTB isn't laced with hysterics, so I can only assume it's going well, so far.
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Isn't the whole thing about Hag same as Trapper that your traps are not supposed to be visible so you can catch survivors off guard? That still works the same way, Hag was already countered before by one person that does nothing but follow the hag destroying all her traps, I don't think that has been changed in any way, crouching and whiping it away might be the safer but also far slower version that can get easily punished if you are close by, because when they are in the radius they will probably trigger it while running away from you or loose a lot of distance if they try to crouch out of it.
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From a killer perspective, pallet stuns are unfun.
Exit gate camping is unfun.
Genrushing is unfun.
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Pallet stuns - no, they're not. If they just took away stuns with no other changes, the game would be less engaging for the killer. It might feel better at first, but it wouldn't be.
Exit gate camping - I think EGC should start the moment the 5th gen is finished, so yeah.
Genrushing - It's much harder of a thing to change then something like hook camping. There's no way to address it without making balance changes, which may or may not be needed, but that's a different issue.
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The problem with pallet stuns is that if you look at this graphic.
When a killer loops a survivor, and run past a pallet, but not into where it is, he can be stunned with it.
The green line is where the killer moves while chasing a survivor, and even when they are not entering the pallet zone ( red), that is the actual pallet area, but still they gets stunned when passing the blue zones (thats outside the pallets visual area) if the pallet is dropped.
Someone said that the problem is the killers hitbox is big, but thats easy to fix, just make the pallets hitbox equally small.
Exit gate camping - Yeah that would be a nice fix.
Gen rushing - well, i would start by adding more charges to each generator.
I have a work related health issue forces me to play with a gamepad, and while some people play very well with gamepads, i dont. So as a consequence of that, im forced to play with slow moving killers when i do play killers. And the travel time with current gen speeds makes it really stressful and unfun to play slow moving killers (for me at least), because every second count when gens fly as fast as they do now.
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You need to crouch to disarm the traps. The reason she got nerfed was a byproduct of the Wraith buff
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If I still have to be mindful of not being too close or not being above or below a hooked Survivor because I clearly am face camping in such scenarios, then I might as well just slug. Hooking feels more like a chore if this gets pushed to live without tweaks
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c
whats that I hear? someone who didnt even understand the post commenting? who could have guessed. I never defended camping, in fact I said I LIKED that the change was implemented even if I find the implementation half baked. Maybe you could.... oh, I don't know, understand the post before you comment.
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I know that, I dont really ever camp outside endgame anyways. I'm just done with BHVR removing mechanics and strategies by force instead of fixing actual game design problems.
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Hot take, what if the ability to face camp is the actual design issue? Not that hard to imagine right...
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Don’t forget stealthy Survivors aren’t fun since they prevent the killer from engaging them. Don’t the Devs want players to be engaged? When are they going to give the killers a base kit mechanic to reveal survivors that haven’t engaged them?
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The PTB testing infinite unbreakable was not because of 'slugging isn't fun'. That PTB was testing the finisher Mori system, where slugging survivors was literally a game winning strategy.
It doesn't take much consideration to think that if you added finisher Mori from that PTB *without* some way for survivors to deal with slugging, that the core game would fundamentally change and hooks would become completely useless. Every single killer would just slug survivors for the win instead. It would be much faster than tunneling, the current 'efficient' strategy.
And even with infinite unbreakable in that test, there were still games where the killer was able to slug all 4 survivors in under 3 minutes to win the game with 0 hooks.
Infinite unbreakable was a bad idea. And the finisher Mori from that PTB was an even worse idea. Neither one should see the light of day ever again.
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Perhaps if you get slugged for over a minute or something like that? When it is somewhat obvious you won't get picked up again? But not speed increase as the perk added back then.
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I still think the problem was the unlimited uses, not speed.
The entire game revolves around survivor resources being limited and finite, from pallets and chests to medkits. And the only way to 'infinitely' do anything requires another survivor to assist.
I'm generally opposed to adding any perk as 'base kit' to the game. I think my one exception to that right now is that shadowborn should be an accessibility slider option.
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it is not really unlimited, since your time on the floor is limited before you bleed out, so you can only use it that often...
I think it is a bad argument to say perks as base kit. You don't get a perk, you get a base mechanic. What BHVR did for a long time was just add perks for problems that should have been in the base kit all along, because first of all not every player has access to all perks and then again it really limits perk variety if you are basically required to use a certain perk otherwise you're basically throwing. Which was a big issue before they introduced endurance after unhook. The problem there was that you could not know if someone has borrowed time and if you do they might not be able to get the survivor in time. And then you basically farmed someone off of hook because you did not really have a choice, as they would go 2nd stage anyway otherwise.
This mechanic similar to the facecamping one right now focus on quite the same issue, removing the ability of a player to play the game. And since stuff similar to that already kind of worked to prevent the issue in some form I think it is fine to just use that instead of figure out something completely new or more complex, those changes can come earlier and if they don't work out as planned they can still figure out something new.
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I disagree. From my perspective, the finisher mori ptb came about from thinking of how to make slugging more fun/less of an issue in certain situations. At which their only real option would be to let you pick yourself up, which obviously called for killer buffs in the form of the finisher mori. I could be wrong but without direct dev confirmation there isnt a realistic way to tell.
Only nurse and blight were remotely capable of downing all 4 survivors within 45 seconds, and its a massive stretch without many many survivor mistakes or having everyone injured previously. Even then the UB buff on the ptb made that timer 22.5s. I feel like basekit unbreakable definitely came from wanting to "solve" slugging, witht the finisher mori being a "necessary" byproduct.
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but tht base mechanic is a perk. hence basekit perk, which is lazy as opposed to actually fixing game design flaws.
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Not really, BT didn't give you haste and the self unhook might seem similar to deliverance, but only because you unhook yourself so if that's all the similarity then what? Is it basically the same as 4%? It is still a better fix then nothing for now and if it works that's fine... Sure fixing game design flaws would be great but if they add features that help with those problems that are not bound to perks that's great, because that has been a huge problem.
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But facecamping didn't really add anything to the game, it was near-universally hated and just made people miserable. The -only- time it has a place is in endgame, which is still allowed. It's okay to essentially just remove stuff if it's bad for the game.
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There is a lot of aura reading perks, Ultimate Weapon is very popular atm.
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Yea, but there’s nothing basekit and killers shouldn’t have to feel forced to take perks in just likes survivors shouldn’t when it co es to camping, tunneling and potentially slugging. They should be able to go in with fun builds without having to worry about facing boring strategies like how survivors should have to worry about being bored on the hook.
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Your first premise is not correct. They've already announced that infinite unbreakable is completely scrapped and will not go live, but the finisher Mori will be revisited and return in another form for testing in the future.
The infinite unbreakable was their first solution to the problem of killers just slugging for the 4k every game at 5 gens they were creating with the finisher Mori. It was most certainly not the other way around.
Edit: clarification, spelling.
Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on1 -
just patrol gens?
I think i have had 1 game in my around 800-900 hours as killer where i could not find any survivors.
when you have progress on a gen, its a good indicator that someone is near.
Also Discordance, Gearhead and Tinkerer are good to find out where they are.
Also, i dont think spending 1 perk on some kind of information perk destroys the fun, but you can always play nemisis if you dont want to do that, and use zombies for information.
While I think that slow moving killers needs a buff, i do also think that basekit aura reading is too OP.
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Survivors didn’t need any perks to counter camping (and tunneling) they just needed teamwork (unless it was Bubbi Boi, who should have been changed). Instead they got basekit BT, hook grabs removed and now the new anti-camp deliverance. They also had plenty of perks to help them.
If the devs cared for the “player experience”, they should show the same courtesy to killers that they have shown to survivors. It just seems that there is a double standard that it’s okay to cater to bad survivors and improve their experience by dumbing down the game but it’s not okay to do so for bad killers.
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How exactly do you prevent hitting the guy that gets unhooked without bt to instantly go down right after unhook? do you want 3 people there to block every side of the hook? That would be massive pressure for the killer for basically every single unhook, also when playing soloq having that coordination is rather hard so it is completely fine to have endurance after unhook, if you don't intend to tunnel it won't bother you anyway, unless the guy bodybocks in which case you can tunnel him right after the endurance runs out. Perks are never a good solution for such problems since they are not available to everyone and limit the variation.
Killers had many quality of life changes over the years? What exactly are you talking about?
This whole mentality that the developers would only care about one side is the dumbest thing ever, you guys just see what you want to see and ignore all the changes that the side you feel disadvantaged got.
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question: does the survivor still get the self unhook progress if there is another survivor near the hook? Aka their team is rushing for a save, would it stop them from getting a self unhook just because im trying to stop them from rushing to save them? If it stops it then it shouldn’t be top much of a problem mechanic depending on the range (i could see range being an issue for gen guarding or multi floor maps). However if it dosent then i see a future of this mechanic being abused to ######### by SWF
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The person being camped isn't getting to play the game. They derive zero enjoyment from seeing other people play the game while they sit there on the hook and the killer just stares at them.
I don't understand why you're advocating for camping to remain a valid tactic when it adds nothing to the game. There are a thousand reasons and then some for why someone might choose to camp. You don't need to camp to create pressure.
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