Can we add in "If another survivor is downed DS Deactivates"

Personally I don't like the idea of any perk turning off due to the actions of other survivors in trial. If you get unhooked right before the killer down another survivor, your protection is gone and now the killer can freely tunnel you.

The only exception is perks turning off at endgame, because at least it's clear when endgame starts.

As for your other idea, even if pallet saves or flashlight saves disabled DS it wouldn't prevent survivors from having the protection to go for those saves. Just going to force out slugs.

I would say if another survivor is hooked would be more fair, as how often do survivors try their best to FORCE their DS value, forcing you to tunnel them out, then you don't hook them right away and instead hook someone else, only then going back for the DS user?

Also, while I don't think it should be necessarily changed, I find all the time survivors running DS love to beeline straight for a locker and jump in loudly, making sure the killer sees and hears… again, going out of their way to say "Tunnel me please, I want to get my DS value and accuse you of being a toxic tunneler at end game!"

I don't know if it would even be easy to put in the game but I'd like to add to your idea. I'd be for it if they made it so that when a survivor is downed while x amount of distance away from the unhooked survivor, it will deactivate DS. The number could probably never be spot on but it might differentiate between someone staying close to body block and someone who is hiding behind rocks trying for a flashlight save.

It could hurt when a survivor actually manages to block a killer against an object and forces them to swing at them. But with the swing and the distance already gained it would still have given the unhooked survivor a lot of time to run. I'm still iffy on it but I don't dislike it either.

Sure, as long as it does not apply if that survivor who has DS is on the ground. Otherwise you will get slugged off hook then they down someone else and go right back to you. Will be especially bad against killers who chew through healthstates and you are hooked somewhere bad like against Huntress or Bubba…

I think having DS deactivated when another survivor is picked up would be a better indicator that the Killer isn't tunneling

Might as well just remove the perk

or remove all survivors perks

if 7 of 10 killers didnt tunnel in the first place, we might not have ended up here. The majority of killers are to blame for this change.

Not to forget, that as soon as this change would be made, all the killers just would slug someone after the person got unhooked to deactivate DS to tunnel him again. So this change would again been misused in the most disgusting way for sure.

It doesn't seem necessary, really. DS already deactivates the moment the user starts a conspicuous action, so albeit a killer won't be able to tunnel them, if that survivor wants to force you to use it, then that's a minute of time they'll be wasting.

Trading is already common, this only buffs it as a ticket to tunnel. Already beneficial if you want to tunnel (and I really don't think it immediately makes it "not tunneling" to down the unhooker while both survivors are locked in the unhook animation, then go for the unhooked), as you'll have the rescuer slugged while starting to deal with whatever the unhooked has, it doesn't need to be buffed. Conspicuous actions are supposed to be actions performed by the survivor with the perk that deactivates from it.

Which is why I'm totally fine with it turning off on a successful flashlight/pallet save. At that point you just prevented another hook with an action you decided to do, totally fine in my eyes if that turns off the perk meant to prevent yourself from being hooked again for a while. But any conspicuous action deactivating perk should never turn off because of the actions, decisions and mistakes of another player.

EDIT: Sure we could just go to "well just don't trade then" territory but at that point we're intentionally adding stuff that widens the solo-swf gap, which is absolutely not something the game needs. Not saying solos can't do stuff like 2-man saves, but both that and simply saying "hey don't take risky hits for me until I say my DS is about to run out" is either easier or only really available to teams.

Oh yes, let my toxic/dumb teammate sabotage me by going down….

I know where your argument comes from, but no, I don't need an anti-tunnel perk to be dependent on the dumbness of my teammates.

Then those who just do it on purpose.

I don't need my perks to be dependent on the actions of my teammates.

Example: Meg farms me off hook (gets hit once during unhook and again directly after I got free), then the killer just needs to wait 10s and hit me again without any fear of DS at all because it's already gone.

No thank you.

You're changing things up. It's not a 60 second head start, it's a 10 second head start. But it doesn't even matter, because if, according to you, you can't catch up to this survivor within 60 seconds, they already cannot have DS anymore.

Too abusable considering there is stuff like MYC and instadown killers that can get a 1 for 1 and still hit you immediately after unhook

You're making a mistake though.

To close the gap of 32 meters, the killer will gain 0.6 meters of distance per second. That takes the killer 53.3 (again, we'll round down) 53 seconds.

That means in an infinite straight line, the killer spent 8.2 seconds hooking the original person, and downing the unhooked survivor takes another 53 seconds for a total of 61.2 seconds.

My point is simple. If you deactivated DS when you did a hook trade, you would not be tunneling, because the original survivor who was hooked would have MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to get from literally one side of the map to the exact opposite end of the map and probably heal themselves before the killer ever got them.

That .6 meters per second ONLY applies if the survivor is continuously running away from the killer. The second that survivor stops running, the killer closes the gap significantly faster. You do not have 60 seconds of free time. What you are describing, with the .6 m/s catch-up, is a chase. In other words, you just got pulled off hook, and the killer is chasing you down.

This is also known as tunnelling.

You could never get that heal off in ten seconds, because the killer doesn't need ten seconds to close the gap if the survivor stops moving to heal.

If, and only IF, the survivor is able to run continuously to try and make distance from the killer, does he have the ability to stretch that distance out to 60 seconds, but at any given time, a ten second head start will not put the killer any further away from the survivor than ten seconds. As in: If the survivor stops, it'll take less than ten seconds for the killer to catch up.

Again: Your whole model is dependent on the survivor being stuck in chase from the moment they're unhooked. Which is what DS is designed to punish.

That doesn't change things, though, does it?

If the survivor gets pulled off the hook, and the killer, wherever they are, immediately turns to head towards the hook and chase that survivor down, do you also state that the survivor isn't getting tunnelled because they had time to make it to a strong loop?

No, at that point they are being tunneled, and they have far less time to get to a safe place

That depends on the distance the killer is at, doesn't it?

You're still describing a scenario where the survivor is pulled off hook and is immediately being targeted again.

There are 2 situations and you just described the one we are literally NOT talking about.

It IS what we are talking about.

I'm stating that this situation the killer is LITERALLY by DEFINITION not tunneling.

You are legit splitting hairs here. If you're going this route, you might as well argue that if the killer kicks a gen or a breakable wall, it disables all anti-tunnel.

The reality is that this allows killers to circumvent anti-tunnel, thus once again buffing tunnelling.

My point is, EVEN IN THIS SITUATION YOU BROUGHT UP, the survivor has MORE than enough time to literally run to the OPPOSITE END OF THE MAP if they need to, in order to get somewhere safe. At that point, if you are getting downed again, you are just bad at being chased, and that is a skill issue.

And it doesn't matter.

If you are immediately targeting a survivor who has just been unhooked, you will get hit with DS. That is DS's exact purpose, and the very reason why DS should not disable under this condition.

And if, as you say, they go down that fast that it's a 'skill issue', just pick 'em up, eat the DS, and get the down again: You're already winning anyway. You're essentially complaining about win-win situations not being killer-sided enough.

Y'all are losing the plot with DS. It's a survivor perk, not a basekit QoL feature. Peanits said it too: This buff to DS is NOT the be-all-end-all 'solution' to tunnelling. You have a point about flashlight saves. You don't have a point about this hook condition.

'But it's an anti-tunnel perk and if you hook someone else you're not tunnelling'

Point out to me where, in DS's description, it states that this perk is intended purely and exclusively as an anti-tunnel feature.

So at this point if you are complaining about "Soft tunneling" you really need to get a grip with reality, because you cannot expect killers to evenly spread hooks out among every single player for the "fun" of the survivors with the game in its current state.

The year is 2027. Killrates are up to 79% and the average winrates for killers is at 86.5%. 'Honestly, I think the basekit BT should go. You can't expect killers to not instadown off-hook with the game in its current state'.

As much as I like this change, I still think it promotes slugging as the counter to DS, and I've never been a fan of having to play that way.