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Can we add in "If another survivor is downed DS Deactivates"
This solves the problem i mentioned in my other thread of flashlight saves and pallet saves being something that don't deactivate DS. Since its a bit hard to figure out what the constitutes, and we do a simple:
"When another survivor enters the dying state, DS deactivates"
Because if another survivor is downed, you aren't being tunneled.
Do that, and i'll say you can buff DS to any stun amount you want, hell make it a 10 second stun at that point for all i care.
Comments
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I hope Plot Twist gets a workaround, otherwise Nic Cage will be Public Enemy #1
Not a bad idea though
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A killer could be tunneling, hit/down someone trying to protect the tunnel, then leave them slugged to continue tunneling that one survivor on death hook now. Ask me how often this happens.
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No, it's often that the unhooked survivors and the saving survivor can be down fairly close to eachother. Why disable a perk where it's legitimately useful?
Besides, if you down another survivor after downing an unhook, you are doing fairly well with the pressure. Hook the saving survivor.
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nah no thanks, i can tell this ds change is scarying you tho
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Proximity camping and hook exchanges are pretty common. Generally after this the killer will hard tunnel the escaping survivor so it would effectively promote this strategy even more for people that are inclined to play that way.
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Personally I don't like the idea of any perk turning off due to the actions of other survivors in trial. If you get unhooked right before the killer down another survivor, your protection is gone and now the killer can freely tunnel you.
The only exception is perks turning off at endgame, because at least it's clear when endgame starts.
As for your other idea, even if pallet saves or flashlight saves disabled DS it wouldn't prevent survivors from having the protection to go for those saves. Just going to force out slugs.
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Me chewing through both Survivors on an unhook with my chainsaw, deactivating their DS (another survivor went down, i wasn't tunneling).
Plot Twisting to intentionally grief my teammate I don't like.
The instadown killer forcing a trade and then waiting 10 seconds for basekit BT to expire.
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I would say if another survivor is hooked would be more fair, as how often do survivors try their best to FORCE their DS value, forcing you to tunnel them out, then you don't hook them right away and instead hook someone else, only then going back for the DS user?
Also, while I don't think it should be necessarily changed, I find all the time survivors running DS love to beeline straight for a locker and jump in loudly, making sure the killer sees and hears… again, going out of their way to say "Tunnel me please, I want to get my DS value and accuse you of being a toxic tunneler at end game!"1 -
I mean, yeah, i tend to get tons of high level survivors, and the use DS offensively. So even though i can go out of my to not tunnel they use the fact that they have DS to make offensive plays, which is not the purpose of the perk.
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I don't think this would end well.
A killer could down someone who was just protecting the unhooked survivor and leave them slugged. That survivor who just got out of the hook is being tunneled, but their DS would be gone.
Killers like Bubba, Myers, Ghostface or any killer with an insta-down perk would be able to tunnel without even thinking about the DS. Not to mention the potential abuse with Plot Twist.
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No because someone could throw themselves at the killer to protect the unhooked survivor and now they’ve just lost DS. You can slug and just go for the other person now and there’s nothing they could do about it.
If you want to stop flashlight saves working with DS then maybe instead of downs it deactivates when causing someone to escape the killers grasp. Or just deactivate when the killer picks someone else up maybe.
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I don't know if it would even be easy to put in the game but I'd like to add to your idea. I'd be for it if they made it so that when a survivor is downed while x amount of distance away from the unhooked survivor, it will deactivate DS. The number could probably never be spot on but it might differentiate between someone staying close to body block and someone who is hiding behind rocks trying for a flashlight save.
It could hurt when a survivor actually manages to block a killer against an object and forces them to swing at them. But with the swing and the distance already gained it would still have given the unhooked survivor a lot of time to run. I'm still iffy on it but I don't dislike it either.
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Copied from my other post in another thread of this same suggestion
The problem here is this could still encourage tunneling. If Surv A is
on hook and Surv B goes down either immediately before or after A is
unhooked, that doesn't mean magically Surv A commited a CA or started
progressing the game again. Also I could just hit Surv C as they unhook
Surv A (to injure), then down C after unhook, and now I have a tunnel
free card to go after Surv A and leave Surv C slugged. Think about
basement, I injure the rescuer on the way down, slug them on their way
back up, and now the OG basement Surv is tunnelable.
That's why CA's are on an individual Survivor basis. I may have downed
two other people crossmap, but the original Survivor still just got off
hook mere seconds ago. It is important to view the match from both
sides, regardless of which side you are currently playing, as it will
give greater insight into your opponent's decisions and perspective.
(Link)1 -
Sure, as long as it does not apply if that survivor who has DS is on the ground. Otherwise you will get slugged off hook then they down someone else and go right back to you. Will be especially bad against killers who chew through healthstates and you are hooked somewhere bad like against Huntress or Bubba…
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This makes no sense. A killer could proxy camp the hook, force a trade, and deactivate DS at the same time. Then they could leave the rescuer slugged and tunnel the person off hook without any fear of DS. We don't need more deactivation conditions for DS. You'd think killers were helpless puppets judging by some of these threads. If a killer is downing multiple players within 60 seconds and still finds a way to lose, that's not a DS problem.
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Take a look at my post count.
I have been playing for a long long time, i have well over 3.5k hours at this point. I was around with the ORIGINAL DS. You know, the one where you had to dribble survivors to counter it? That one. Believe me, this gutted version of it does not "scare" me. The problem is that the perk has been redesigned over and over again, and at this point it is clear the intention is that it is an anti-tunnel perk. The problem is that there are tons of ways that survivors can FORCE you into a position where you are literally trying NOT to tunnel, but they can offensively use this ability by taking advantage of it. This is no different than back when you could just do gens in the killer's face and hop into a locker before the conspicuous action change.
I'm simply stating that, if you are not being tunneled. DS Should, by design, do nothing. And there are tons of things that can happen where a survivor is NOT being tunneled, and yet they still are able to use DS.
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This doesn't sound like it'll work. Have a killer proxy the basement…the unhooker goes down to make a trade and now the unhooked lost their DS because of the trade.
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I think having DS deactivated when another survivor is picked up would be a better indicator that the Killer isn't tunneling
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I think people using DS more offensive than defensive isn't using it the wrong way. One could argue it's a playstyle to play as aggresive as possible with the tools you have, similar to how killers tunnel, and how people accept as being a valid playstyle no matter how "unfair/unfun" it may seem to the other side.
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Might as well just remove the perk
or remove all survivors perks
3 -
no
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Sry but what the hell? Why should they change it? It already does not make that big of a difference if the killer is good. It is so weird how they have to change every helpful perk the survivors still got only cause these killers who have trouble with it.
I learned a lot about MMR now and found out that most of the times killers have to face survivors who have that with are not there because they are actually very good killer but because they get a high MMR because the majority of survivors does not have any patience anymore and play with bad killers so they kill themselves. Which ultimatively raise the MMR of most killers so they come to face high rank survivors which acutally got there because they ARE good. So NO they should stop to change every perk only cause killers who come in high MMR cry that they wont get anyone anymore. That shows perfect how many killers in high MMR did not actually get there cause they are bloody good killers but because they got there cause survivors are done with this stuff.
And if not the best saying there will be "get good" I do not know what is not the best to say here.
Stop come out and wanting all perks to be changed but learn FINALLY to deal with perks which make the game a challenge for you like all the survivors have cause of the killers who complained so loud the devs change everything for them. It would be the same if I would cry about every perk out there which I do not like. Which I do not do. Sure I say some are very op yea and should need an adjustment, but that only because it was already changed to that because all the killers who noticed they now face survivors who actually DO OUTPLAY them and they can not keep up with that so the devs need to change it for them
To be honest the most logical change which devs should consider is making a ranked mode. A mode were you get pips and so on and a unranked mode, were you just play. It is annoying to talk to people who always want change every perk left which are maybe helpful for survivors only cause they are not able to keep up with that. And yes all killers who complains about perks like that are not that good as it seems. Cause if you would been good you did not need to complain, and I am sure the killers who acutally earned their high MMR through skill and not through survivors who killed themselves or toxic playstyles, do not even write any complains since they do not need to.
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Not to forget, that as soon as this change would be made, all the killers just would slug someone after the person got unhooked to deactivate DS to tunnel him again. So this change would again been misused in the most disgusting way for sure.
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It should be when another survivor is hooked
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It doesn't seem necessary, really. DS already deactivates the moment the user starts a conspicuous action, so albeit a killer won't be able to tunnel them, if that survivor wants to force you to use it, then that's a minute of time they'll be wasting.
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wouldnt mind this but then you have to give it a little buff
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Trading is already common, this only buffs it as a ticket to tunnel. Already beneficial if you want to tunnel (and I really don't think it immediately makes it "not tunneling" to down the unhooker while both survivors are locked in the unhook animation, then go for the unhooked), as you'll have the rescuer slugged while starting to deal with whatever the unhooked has, it doesn't need to be buffed. Conspicuous actions are supposed to be actions performed by the survivor with the perk that deactivates from it.
Which is why I'm totally fine with it turning off on a successful flashlight/pallet save. At that point you just prevented another hook with an action you decided to do, totally fine in my eyes if that turns off the perk meant to prevent yourself from being hooked again for a while. But any conspicuous action deactivating perk should never turn off because of the actions, decisions and mistakes of another player.
EDIT: Sure we could just go to "well just don't trade then" territory but at that point we're intentionally adding stuff that widens the solo-swf gap, which is absolutely not something the game needs. Not saying solos can't do stuff like 2-man saves, but both that and simply saying "hey don't take risky hits for me until I say my DS is about to run out" is either easier or only really available to teams.
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Even that one I don't agree with. Hook trading would immediately kill DS and thus produce more tunnelling.
Overall, the only condition I can think of that DS should be affected by is using a flashlight. In any other case, DS is entirely avoidable or useless. You don't need to commit to the same target repeatedly and you can pick someone else, especially if you can hook someone and then down the first target again within 60 seconds of them being unhooked. At that point, you are already winning really hard and can absolutely afford to go for someone else.
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But BY DEFINITION you are not tunneling if someone else is being hooked. PERIOD. Even if someone saved the survivor, got hit, and did a trade, do you realize HOW MUCH time it takes the killer to hook that new person?
You have to:
- Wait for 2.7 wipe animation
- "Fiddle" about for 2-3 seconds because the game decides to "lag" them in some random position on the ground
- 3 second pickup animation
- 1.5 second hook animation
That's around 10 full seconds. Do you know how FAR a survivor can get in 10 seconds? That is a full 40 meters. Do you know how LONG it takes a killer to catch up to a survivor with a full 10 second head start? 60 seconds. Basically, you could be on one end of the map and want to run to the exact opposite corner, and you would not only beat the killer to that corner, but even after you stopped moving it would take the killer another 10 seconds to even get to you.
That is MORE than enough time for you to run to a safe area of the map and still have plenty of time to hide as your scratch marks disappear and make it difficult to track where you went. At that point if you get caught again you are just bad at hiding from the killer.
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That's around 10 full seconds. Do you know how FAR a survivor can get in 10 seconds?
Not far enough. Scratch marks will still point you out, so there's zero chance to break the chase. Even if you do start walking, due to your slow movement, you can't make meaningful distance, and a quick sweep will have the killer find you again.
Not to mention that if you get that hook trade, you shouldn't then be rewarded by also disabling the most easy-to-circumvent perk that survivors have. You're already winning, you don't need to win harder, and certainly not at the expense of another survivor's playability.
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Oh yes, let my toxic/dumb teammate sabotage me by going down….
I know where your argument comes from, but no, I don't need an anti-tunnel perk to be dependent on the dumbness of my teammates.
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A 60 second head start isn't enough? What world do you live in? Are the rest of the survivors just standing around looking at a wall instead of working gens?
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You shouldn't balance the game around your "dumb teammates" because if you did then killer would never be able to get kills.
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It takes you 60 seconds to hook someone?
Besides, if it takes you 60 seconds to catch up, DS is already disabled anyway.6 -
Then those who just do it on purpose.
I don't need my perks to be dependent on the actions of my teammates.
Example: Meg farms me off hook (gets hit once during unhook and again directly after I got free), then the killer just needs to wait 10s and hit me again without any fear of DS at all because it's already gone.
No thank you.
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Did you not read what i wrote?
Here it is, but if you don't want to read it because of math, it is simple
Even if you hook trade, the person who just got unhooked gets a 10 second head start. In this math i didn't even factor in the fact that they run faster due to the basekit BT. A 10 second headstart, in an infinite straight line, is a 60 second head start, in that it takes a killer 60 seconds to catch up. Yes, it is true that maps are not an infinite straight line, but the point is that you have PLENTY of time, to run to the literal OPPOSITE END of the map if you need to in order to get somewhere safe like shack pallet.
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You're changing things up. It's not a 60 second head start, it's a 10 second head start. But it doesn't even matter, because if, according to you, you can't catch up to this survivor within 60 seconds, they already cannot have DS anymore.
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No thanks
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Too abusable considering there is stuff like MYC and instadown killers that can get a 1 for 1 and still hit you immediately after unhook
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You seem to be missing the point. So i'll spell it out more clearly. You mentioned that the killer would just hook trade and go after the unhooked person and that was still "tunneling". I'm making the point that by definition it is not tunneling for the following reasons.
If you factor in the hook trade after the survivor gets unhooked, the following happens, and i'll be more generous for the survivor side in the math this time around to show how obvious it is.
- The killer hits the unhooker a second time, downing them and sits through a 2.7 wipe animation.
- The killer positions themself over the person they just downed, lets say that takes 1 second.
- The killer picks up the downed survivor, this takes 3 seconds
- The killer hooks the downed survivor, this takes 1.5 seconds
In total, the killer spend 2.7 + 1 + 3 +1.5 seconds downing the unhooker and completing the hook trade. That is a total of 8.2 seconds.
During that 8.2 seconds, the person who was just unhooked, is able to move a distance of 36.08 (we'll round to 36) meters.
A killer moves at a default speed of 4.6 meters per second and needs to be within 3.5 meters to do a successful lunge attack. That means the survivor still running, and the killer pursuing, the killer needs to close a gap of 36 - 3.5 = 32.5 meters.
The survivor for 10 seconds moves at 4.4 meters per second. So for 10 - 8.2 (the killer was effectively standing still for 8.2 seconds) the survivor moves at 4.4 m/s for 1.8 more seconds, and then at 4 m/s for the rest of the chase. So after 1.8 seconds, the killer has gained 0.36 meters of distance. This puts the killer at needing to close a gap of 32.14 meters (we'll round down in favor of the survivor to 32 meters) to land a hit..
To close the gap of 32 meters, the killer will gain 0.6 meters of distance per second. That takes the killer 53.3 (again, we'll round down) 53 seconds.
That means in an infinite straight line, the killer spent 8.2 seconds hooking the original person, and downing the unhooked survivor takes another 53 seconds for a total of 61.2 seconds.
Now again, obviously, the map is not an infinite straight line. Maps are typically around 100 x 100 meters square. Generally they aren't perfect squares, but they have roughly the same area.
My point is simple. If you deactivated DS when you did a hook trade, you would not be tunneling, because the original survivor who was hooked would have MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to get from literally one side of the map to the exact opposite end of the map and probably heal themselves before the killer ever got them. And, as you pointed out, it doesn't matter because the DS timer would be up anyway, so if you deactivate it when another survivor is downed, it isn't going to hurt the unhooked survivor in this case.
Where it DOES come into play, is when say, someone gets unhooked, you down someone else and then the original unhooked guy, uses his temporary powers of invincibility, to go for a pallet save, or a flashlight save, or body blocking to prevent you from hooking. Etc. Because BY DEFINITION the unhooked guy is LITERALLY not being tunneled, because you LITERALLY downed someone else and are attempting to unhook them.
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You're making a mistake though.
To close the gap of 32 meters, the killer will gain 0.6 meters of distance per second. That takes the killer 53.3 (again, we'll round down) 53 seconds.
That means in an infinite straight line, the killer spent 8.2 seconds hooking the original person, and downing the unhooked survivor takes another 53 seconds for a total of 61.2 seconds.
My point is simple. If you deactivated DS when you did a hook trade, you would not be tunneling, because the original survivor who was hooked would have MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to get from literally one side of the map to the exact opposite end of the map and probably heal themselves before the killer ever got them.
That .6 meters per second ONLY applies if the survivor is continuously running away from the killer. The second that survivor stops running, the killer closes the gap significantly faster. You do not have 60 seconds of free time. What you are describing, with the .6 m/s catch-up, is a chase. In other words, you just got pulled off hook, and the killer is chasing you down.
This is also known as tunnelling.
You could never get that heal off in ten seconds, because the killer doesn't need ten seconds to close the gap if the survivor stops moving to heal.
If, and only IF, the survivor is able to run continuously to try and make distance from the killer, does he have the ability to stretch that distance out to 60 seconds, but at any given time, a ten second head start will not put the killer any further away from the survivor than ten seconds. As in: If the survivor stops, it'll take less than ten seconds for the killer to catch up.
Again: Your whole model is dependent on the survivor being stuck in chase from the moment they're unhooked. Which is what DS is designed to punish.
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I feel like you are intentionally missing the point now.
Yes, i understand that it only matters if the survivor is running the whole time. But given that a map is 100 x 100 square meters, the math checks out, that the survivor has enough time to get to say, the killer shack (one of the strongest structures in the game) even if it is on the complete opposite end of the map. So they have plenty of time to get to a safe area, and then some.
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That doesn't change things, though, does it?
If the survivor gets pulled off the hook, and the killer, wherever they are, immediately turns to head towards the hook and chase that survivor down, do you also state that the survivor isn't getting tunnelled because they had time to make it to a strong loop?
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No, at that point they are being tunneled, and they have far less time to get to a safe place, so DS should still be in play. We are discussing the situation where the killer downs and then hooks the person who did the unhooking and then proceeds to go after the person who was hooked. Because that was the scenario that was brough up when i said that downing a different survivor should disable DS.
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No, at that point they are being tunneled, and they have far less time to get to a safe place
That depends on the distance the killer is at, doesn't it?
You're still describing a scenario where the survivor is pulled off hook and is immediately being targeted again.
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Are you intentionally doing this?
There are 2 situations and you just described the one we are literally NOT talking about.
- The survivor is unhooked and the killer immediately tunnels them
- This is precisely why DS exists and it should still be in play here
- The survivor is unhooked, and the killer does a hook trade with the person who unhooked them
- This was the reason you gave why: "We can't have DS disable when another survivor is downed because of this"
- I'm stating that this situation the killer is LITERALLY by DEFINITION not tunneling. Because they hooked a different person. What you are complaining about here is what people are starting to describe as "Soft tunneling" which Tru3 mentioned in his recent discussion with otz, where you target 2 different survivors and go for them rather than the other 2.
- My point is, EVEN IN THIS SITUATION YOU BROUGHT UP, the survivor has MORE than enough time to literally run to the OPPOSITE END OF THE MAP if they need to, in order to get somewhere safe. At that point, if you are getting downed again, you are just bad at being chased, and that is a skill issue.
- So at this point if you are complaining about "Soft tunneling" you really need to get a grip with reality, because you cannot expect killers to evenly spread hooks out among every single player for the "fun" of the survivors with the game in its current state.
2 - The survivor is unhooked and the killer immediately tunnels them
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There are 2 situations and you just described the one we are literally NOT talking about.
It IS what we are talking about.
I'm stating that this situation the killer is LITERALLY by DEFINITION not tunneling.
You are legit splitting hairs here. If you're going this route, you might as well argue that if the killer kicks a gen or a breakable wall, it disables all anti-tunnel.
The reality is that this allows killers to circumvent anti-tunnel, thus once again buffing tunnelling.
My point is, EVEN IN THIS SITUATION YOU BROUGHT UP, the survivor has MORE than enough time to literally run to the OPPOSITE END OF THE MAP if they need to, in order to get somewhere safe. At that point, if you are getting downed again, you are just bad at being chased, and that is a skill issue.
And it doesn't matter.
If you are immediately targeting a survivor who has just been unhooked, you will get hit with DS. That is DS's exact purpose, and the very reason why DS should not disable under this condition.
And if, as you say, they go down that fast that it's a 'skill issue', just pick 'em up, eat the DS, and get the down again: You're already winning anyway. You're essentially complaining about win-win situations not being killer-sided enough.
Y'all are losing the plot with DS. It's a survivor perk, not a basekit QoL feature. Peanits said it too: This buff to DS is NOT the be-all-end-all 'solution' to tunnelling. You have a point about flashlight saves. You don't have a point about this hook condition.
'But it's an anti-tunnel perk and if you hook someone else you're not tunnelling'
Point out to me where, in DS's description, it states that this perk is intended purely and exclusively as an anti-tunnel feature.
So at this point if you are complaining about "Soft tunneling" you really need to get a grip with reality, because you cannot expect killers to evenly spread hooks out among every single player for the "fun" of the survivors with the game in its current state.
The year is 2027. Killrates are up to 79% and the average winrates for killers is at 86.5%. 'Honestly, I think the basekit BT should go. You can't expect killers to not instadown off-hook with the game in its current state'.
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If you're going in that direction, then it would need to very specific criteria. I'd lean more towards:
"While DS is active, if another Survivor is placed into the Dying state while you are healthy or injured and not within 32 meters of the Killer's location, DS deactivates immediately."
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As much as I like this change, I still think it promotes slugging as the counter to DS, and I've never been a fan of having to play that way.
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But you brough up that what i said in this was that it would take the killer 60 seconds to catch up, which means DS is disabled, we literally agree on this.
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