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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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The issue is that slugs can't do anything, that's the complaint I see very very often. Healing eachother gives BP and allows the other player to do something again and unless survivors have got themselves a 3 gen situation then then 2 survivors can complete a last gen if they are spread out. It prolongs that match because the match is still in play, not over yet.
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The point of slugging for the 4k is that the killer has time to search the map for last survivor. No point slugging for 4k if they remain by the slugged player and don't even try looking for the last one, might as well just hook and kill them if killers are waiting it out like that because when they bleed out hatch is in play which is what the killer is trying to avoid.
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Tell that to the dips who run 10 seconds away then return to where they left the slug~
We never say it was practical, only that people very often do it.2 -
Yes, I understand the complaint. We discussed this in a different thread. Healing in a 2v1 doesn't give agency though. It just allows you to hide better. If there was only one gen left you might have a point. Other than that, no, you let them bleed out and try for hatch. If you don't then not only do you not get a chance at hatch, you might also find an annoyed killer who will bleed you out for hiding.
You don't heal in a 2v1.
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It's got nothing to do with survivors not healing their team mates. Any killer player that's willing to bleed someone to death trying to find the last survivor is going to do it regardless of whether they're healthy or not. That killer player is determined to get their 4k.
Why shouldn't the last person hide for hatch? If the match is not winnable with only two survivors left then why bother bashing your head against a brick wall trying to win something you cannot win.
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One small change that could help at least a little bit in this regard would be this: a hatch escape still counts as the kill for the killer, so that they can Adapt or claim a 4K challenge or bonus or whatever. It would take out a couple more of the driving forces behind killers feeling the tangible need to 4K.
The game could also acknowledge somehow that a 3K with hatch escape is a win for the killer, and instead of getting a luke warm reception from the Entity, it could give a "Entity sated", "Entity feasting on fear and despair" or "happy Entity" kinda post-game resolution, thus making the killers feel that they won. Yeah, it might be an ego thing for some, but because of the assymetric nature of the game, very often the survivor who got hatch will go to great length to gaslight the killer into believing that they didn't win. Its not a big thing for most, but it CAN sting, especially if the escaped survivor was a mean bully all game long, so the game acknowledging the win could go a long way into making killer players more content with what they got.
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So, the teabagging survivor lost the game and is trying to get a rise out of you for what feels like a emotional dig or victory for them over you and you're giving them that satisfaction by attempting to bypass the game as intended and taking out your frustrations on other players who aren't the player who tried to get a rise out of you?
If the teabagging survivor in question actually seriously thinks they 'won' by getting what's widely acknowledged as an RNG pity escape why would you care about the opinion of someone who has so little game sense they don't understand a 3K means the Killer won?
The 4 minutes mention is also erroneous as it's a hard cap set by BHVR. The intent behind both slugging the second last survivor for the 4K and hiding in a locker for the Hatch is to bypass game mechanics and gameplay as intended and waste another player's time and, if the timer were one hour, the same people who try to justify it now would try to justify it then. If you want to say the Killer's role is to kill and that justifies slugging the second last survivor then the Survivor's role is to survive and that would justify the hiding. In reality those are just examples of poor sportsmanship and a lack of consideration for other people and the Killer who slugs the second last for the 4K is not behaving any better nor any better than the Survivor who is locker hopping in the hopes of getting Hatch
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That's a good suggestion.
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It's a good idea, but also - fix the tricks that allow people to avoid AFK crows.
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This.
You can win four times a round as Killer, as long as you kill someone it's one win. That's how the game is designed. Survivor has to escape, that's how they win. Therefore, the only way you can lose the round as Killer is if you 0k, everything from 1-4k is just how many wins you got. That's the 60% killrate this game is balanced around, not how many can 4k relentlessly. It's the community, not the game, that determined this arbitrary 1k lose 2k ties 3-4k wincon. Not the Devs. WE did that. Us.
That's why the game gives you ranks of number of kills for Killer (Brutal, Ruthless, Merciless). But Survivor it's binary, you escape or you die. You win or you lose. The real goal of Killer isn't to kill 'em all, it's to kill as many as possible, no matter what the game or the community tells you.
Therefore, a 1k is a win. A 2k is two wins, and so on.
This follows for Survivors too. You do not win or lose as a team, you win or lose individually. A 4 man out means nothing except that all four of you were overqualified for what that Killer could handle, you were all better than them. Any amount of kills in a round means that the Survivor who died is equal to not as good as that Killer. And on both sides you get more points for doing more things in the round than for just slamming your objective and leaving.
This isn't CoD or Overwatch. I'm not sure why the community has insisted we hold Killers to a higher standard based on number of kills over Survivor just trying to escape or not. I'm not sure why we've all collectively decided you HAVE to slaughter most of the team or you aren't good at Killer. The game isn't balanced that way.
And in any case, a 3k is definitely a good result. Hell, an 8hook is a good result and the same thing as essentially, a 3k. If the game doesn't care, and rewards you for it regardless of if you kill anyone, then why does the community care so much? How did we get this way?
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just got out of another one and yup. Give peopel a mori on last survivor, incentivise slugging.
Idiot move by BHVR5 -
It always comes down to this...if the match isn't winnable then why not go for the hatch? Because the match not being winnable is a loss lol. Hiding for the hatch is basically bashing your head against a brick wall trying to get a win from a lost match, especially if the killer stops the slug from bleeding out (which I have done 3 times tonight because last survivor refused to come out of hiding) no idea why people can't take the loss and just move on
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Exactly. It's a loss. But one person has a shot at escape. But it's still a win for the killer. But many killer players will still bleed someone out trying to find the last survivor because they just want that 4k.
Even though they already won.
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On the flip side a survivor will hide even tho they lost. If a survivor is willing to hide in an already lost match then people can expect killer to slug an already won watch. Survivor wants a hatch in a match they lost killer wants Mori in a match they won. Still makes both sides to blame for the prolonged match. To be fair tho, I know if I'm survivor and I'm slugged and my team mate heals me I'm making sure we both die quickly so I'm not stuck in a match I lost. Kinda why it's handy to keep the 3rd alive... Give them an option of end it fast by running away from me towards the other player or end it slow via server end timer
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Why not just give up and concede the game though? You know the killer is going to keep looking for you and all you're doing is wasting everyone's time.I'll take a different tact here then a lot of responders. So our scenario is we have two survivors, one slugged, one up, and a killer who want to find the one up, why more emphasis on the killer:
1: Best case scenario, even if the up survivor just starts spamming noise to indicate their location, its still going to be a longer wait for the slugged survivor then if they were just hooked. I pretty much always just give myself up if the killer wants to slug as I hate the thought of making that slugged survivor just sit for 4 minutes, but even then it can be awhile for them to get to me, down me, and then potentially walk back to the slug, hook them first, come back to me, mori or hook me, when they could have just hooked the slug at the start. Someone is still stuck in the game longer than if there was just a hook and then a hatch play.
2: Just on an enjoyment / psychology front: we all agree the slugged survivor isn't having fun, but hiding out as the survivor can be enjoyable. You're camped out in a bush or locker, watching the killer searching around, hoping you don't get found as the meter ticks down, anticipating that mad race towards the hatch. It still has the DbD elements for that player. I've met a few killers who claim to enjoy that search, but usually people think it is boring and pointless.
So the slugged survivor thinks, 'Why are we doing this?', the killer thinks 'Why are we doing this?', while the up survivor thinks 'I know what I'm going for.' It just doesn't make sense for the Killer to engage in an action that they themselves find unenjoyable.
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- I'll generally hook right away unless I suspect there's a save incoming. Then I'll either give hatch or gate if I find hatch first. Thing is - maybe half the time the survivor will still sit in the gate teabagging until I chase them out which is frustrating. If it's been an annoying day that'll often be enough to make me unlikely to give the next group much mercy.
- I cannot stand hiders. I'd rather face the sweatiest, most BM looper in the entire game than someone who wastes my time to that degree.
However, here's the problem.
Scenario 3.
3. I down survivor 1. I can try for a pickup, but let's say survivor 2 has BGP and a flashlight, or 1 goes down on a pallet. Now I cannot help but slug or…well, see the sentence after next. So I can camp a slug or go hunting for the last one. I choose the latter, survivor 1 sneaks around, gets survivor 2 up and then I have 2 people hiding because now both want hatch. And this can go on until server closes.
Isn't it better for all involved not to chance it?
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I believe this is one of the big reasons for Survivors throwing on first hook. They don't want to potentially end up in this stalemate if the Killer gets their first hook too early.
If people are asking "Why don't Survivors just give up?" in this situation, they should understand why Survivors usually give up a lot earlier.
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maybe half the time the survivor will still sit in the gate teabagging until I chase them out which is frustrating.I've never seen quite the level of BM that some other people seem to experience, either when playing survivor or killer, but when I encounter BM it seems to come about the same from both sides. It's never right, but as others have covered its a both sides things.
I down survivor 1. I can try for a pickup, but let's say survivor 2 has BGP and a flashlight, or 1 goes down on a pallet.I don't think this is really the scenario people mean when they discuss slugging for the 4k. If you take a moment to check for the other survivor I highly doubt anyone, who is not trolling, would consider that inappropriate.
then I have 2 people hiding because now both want hatch. And this can go on until server closes.We need a lot of things to happen. First, if both survivors want the hatch, why is one survivor even rescuing the other? I'm sure it has happened, but it seems unlikely.
But if it happens, the rescued survivor is injured, so they would need something like iron will to have a chance of escaping, but even then they are leaving a trail of blood behind them meaning they are likely to be found.
It seems such an unlikely situation to waste time over, when the more likely scenario is the other survivor is just hiding somewhere waiting for the bleedout to finish (and then might be looking for a key on top of it, potentially sticking you in the game even longer).
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That's not the flip side of it. A survivor still has a shot at escape. As the game says in the intro death is not an escape. So why should you just die when you have a chance to escape?
Whereas in the killer's situation they killed the majority of the team. They won. It's not a knock against your skill as a killer if one survivor is lucky enough to get the hatch or open an exit.
The killer in that situation has the power to take their win and end the match. Instead many will subject someone to bleeding out on the floor while they search high and low trying to find the final survivor. All because they just want that perfect shiny 4k.
There's no scenario, other than doing adept, where the killer looks good for putting a player through a bleed out on the floor just so they can have a perfect 4k. They're entitled to of course, but it sucks to stretch a match out and waste people's time for ego reasons like that.
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True death is no escape, but if survivor can't do gens they have failed. If survivor can't get hatch, they failed. If they can't open gates before the time expires they failed. Personally that's too many chances, so when survivors fail at doing gens it's gameover. That's why when I'm able to, if there is 2 v 1 and I can't find the 4th after slugging the 3rd I keep both alive so there is no chance of escape. Can't get hatch because there's still 2 people left, can't do gens clearly otherwise why hide it out for so long? No escape, hiding at that point is futile and accomplishes nothing because if they keep hiding they both die. If killers want 4k for ego reasons then survivors want to hide in a futile match for toxic reasons. But you say why should you just die when you have a chance to escape. Why should killer just allow the hatch potentially allowing a survivor to escape? You say the killer won but not everyone considers 3k a win. This 3k being a win is mostly from MMR going up when there's 3k. MMR that no one can see or cares about. So it's perfectly reasonable for some killers to not consider 3k a win as it doesn't count towards achievements, gives a lot less BP, miss out on mori.
There's very little a killer can do to look good in survivors eyes to be honest, can't slug, can't tunnel, can't camp, can't use noed even have salt comments about using light born as a crutch lol I know I'm not the only one that gets this. So in light of that, I really don't think many killers care if they look good or not for slugging for 4k. Killers can end it quicker yes. But like or not, so can survivors by a acknowledging they have lost and can't win.
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Because they still won the match that's why. Its just pure ego to go to those lengths just because you want a 4k. There's nothing reasonable about that. Its got nothing to do with MMR. A 3k is a win. No survivor team who had three of them die can say they won lol. That's absurd.
What achievements, other than adept and Myers' evil incarnate, are they missing out on if one person escapes a trial. Missing out on a mori or BP (as if they BP for one extra kill is so substantial). Yeah those are great reasons to keep someone staring at the floor for several minutes instead of just letting them move onto the next match.
Don't move goal posts. We're not talking about camping and tunneling or using Noed. We're talking about slugging for the 4k. Its flat out false to say someone having a shot at escaping should just hand themselves over as a free kill so the killer's ego will be satisfied and end the match they already won.
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They won the match according you, but maybe not according to the killer, that's my point. No where does it say in the game win or lose, it's all subjective. If I get 2k Vs a team of hackers I consider that a win. If I stomp the team before they get even close to doing all gens and 1 still makes it out then I don't consider it a win. You basically dismiss all the things that a killer might want or feel a win grants them. But your not willing to dismiss anything the hatch gives a survivor. I can say "oh extra BP and don't lose MMR... Good reason to try hide and escape a match they already lost." It's survivor entitlement, expecting another shot at escape when they failed." Makes way more sense for a killer that's won to get 4k than a survivor that's lost to still escape, if killer lost the match and was expecting a kill you might have a point but to reward the loser with another escape option and deny the winner a 4k is very strange.
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WGLF + MFT destroys slugging altogether
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Subjective. How does the majority of the team being killed count as subjective for a win or loss. Three of them died. That's like saying you did well in an exam even though you got most of the questions wrong.
I'm not dismissing anything the killer might want or feel. I said they're entitled to slug for the 4k if they want it that bad, it just sucks that they do it because other players have to have their time wasted staying in a match that's already over. Its understandable if its for an adept achievement, you need the 4k and adept is hard as it is. Anyone can understand why a killer would go to such lengths to secure a 4k in that scenario.
The hatch is in the game for a reason. To give the last survivor a chance at escaping. I never said the last survivor is entitled to escape. You said the last survivor could just give up because they lost the match. I said they shouldn't have to hand themselves over as a free kill and deny themselves a chance of escaping just to satisfy a player's ego of wanting a 4k just so they won't have their time wasted having the killer bleed some poor player out while they hunt all over the map for the last one.
Just call it for what it is. Players want their 4k win because it simply looks better to them than a 3k win. But a win is a win. As I said before its no knock against the killer if the final survivors is lucky enough to find hatch or get an exit open because of bad exit gate RNG.
Anyway this is my last response in this discussion because its just getting repetitive now. There's no reasons that anyone can offer that would make it sound justified beyond going for adept or trying for Myers' evil incarnate.
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The ironical part is that you probably trigger this BM yourself, by slugging for 4k which 90% of survivors consider toxic.
As Nazzzak said, slugging is a total lack of respect for your opponents' time. Don't be surprised that people waste your time in return, when you're the one who starrted it.
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Because many people see it as 1v1v1v1v1 even bhvr kill rate is based on this. On that basis a killer can get 1k and say they won against that survivor so 1k is considered a win...a small win but still a win. So if a killer gets 1k and wins v that survivor then they should take the win and allow survivors a cheap escape for doing nothing? No they go for 2nd kill... then 3rd then 4th. 4th being the tricky one because of hatch so killers play around it. The fact that you close yourself from the discussion shows your unwilling to listen or learn about others views and opinions even if you disagree with them. But each to their own, can't force you to discuss the matter further any more than you can force a killer into not preventing the hatch going for the 4k lol.
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You might have misworded it, but in case you were talking about something else: the devs aren't okay with 4-minute bleedouts, but they are okay with survivors hiding for 10-20 minutes. Seems like a pretty biased addressing of the problem to me.
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Right, that's why I didn't receive a one-month-ban for explaining how and why "eternal hiding" is the only way to play a 2v1. Oh wait, I did.
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Man I wish the devs were actually survivor biased at this point. It is absurd that one side (killer) is just easy mode.
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Care? Not really. It's annoying enough that I'll try to prevent it in future.
That entire page long paragraph misses the point. I'll inconvenience someone for 4 minutes to avoid being inconvenienced for 20+. It's not only the fault of the hiders, it's BHVR's fault for having so many ways to avoid AFK crows. If they cared, this would have been fixed a long time ago.
Again - 4 minutes versus server closing time. Neither are great, but one is objectively worse than the other.
And posts like this contribute to killers being mean. Because if you legitimately want them to suffer, then…well, isn't turnabout fair play?
(The game isn't balanced around solo queue. SWF versus killer is pretty balanced, some things excepted).
It is what it is. If they wanted it fixed, it would be fixed already.
Hatch - minor concern, mostly because BM can be annoying.
Hiding - major concern. Especially if they somehow manage to unhook or pick up.
It's easier just to camp the slug. Sucks, but hunting all over the map for 2 survivors who want to troll sucks more.
Survivors give up because they want to go to the next game. I'm completely against it, but I understand. Time is valuable.
Now, apply this logic to 2 survivors potentially taking the match hostage in a way BHVR does not seem to want to fix or take action on. Slugging is preferable.
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So we may have missed something at this point and want to be clear on everything. This thread was originally about slugging for the 4k and how some of it is part of the survivors fault for not coming to the slugs rescue correct? Its now become about 2 survivors hiding and waiting for 1 to die so the other gets hatch?
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If the game is balanced around swf, then every single possible buff should be given to solo que survivors until their escape rates are as close as possible. All info perks like kindred, bond etc. should be basekit, perks that are solo que killers but worthless against swh like third seal should be taken out of the game. Unless actions like this are taken to show that Bhvr. actually cares about making the game playable for the majority of survivor players than it can only be assumed that the ability to "go next" on hook is purposely kept in the game by Bhvr. due to their choice or inability to balance their game. Without that "escape hatch" even the resolute players still playing survivor at this point would stop playing.
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You once again avoid the point. You don't need to risk having someone hide for 20 minutes if you just pick up the downed survivor and hook them instead of slugging them. They die and the game goes on as intended with the Killer and last survivor looking for Hatch with the Killer already having the advantage in finding it since the Killer moves faster and isn't slowing down or hiding to avoid being spotted.
Also, if you were nonchalant about the teabagging at Hatch like you claim to be you wouldn't be talking about it on the forums. You won the match of DbD because they had to use hatch; they won the mind game they tried to do because the incident still lives rent free in your head.
My point is that claiming slugging for the 4K is in any way, shape or form more justified than locker hopping for the Hatch is an example of cognitive dissonance. Anyone who slugs the second last survivor for the 4K is just as guilty as bad behaviour as the person locker hopping for Hatch.
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I think it's because it's all related, slugging for 4k is usually due to 2 v 1 situations so 3rd survivor is slugged left to bleed out while other survivor is hiding waiting for the hatch instead of healing the slug. A lot of complaints seem to be that survivors can't do anything when slugged so might as well go afk for 4min. But the reason why they are left for the full duration of the slug timer is due to killer looking for the last survivor so won't hook them AND the other survivor not healing the team mate due to hiding and also not coming out of hiding so killer can quickly down and hook the last one then go back and hook the slug. Which then leads to why this situation happens...being the hatch and if it's reasonable to hide out for the hatch or save the team mate from being slugged.
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This reason is why I constantly suggest a way for the killer to "end" the match after killing 3 survivors. Like in basement a glyph spawns that they can go through to leave the match and get some bonus BP, basically saying "I killed 3 of you, I win, I'm out", then the last survivor can do whatever they want in the empty trial.
This glyph could also be made available during EGC too, so if survivors wait at gates, you don't have to go push them out or wait for EGC to run out, you can just head to basement, interact with the glyph and peace out.
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i rarely slugged for 4k, but when i did, last survivor intentionally crawled to random spot of the map and forced me to search for them and thus waste so much time for both of us in most of cases
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I'm kinda surprised nobody else has questioned this because it's definitely the moment that's left me scratching my head.
Oh well. Until BHVR implements a systemic fix for this problem, I'll just continue to not do it on killer and bring Plot Twist on survivor so I can incentivize the killer to pick me up if I'm one of the last two.
Tbagging on hatch? Really? That's what you're worried about? I'm at 3500 hours and I rarely see that. Why do you even care, they're popping off because they won a coin toss, it's pathetic and laughable.
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no idea why people can't take the loss and just move on
Because it's not a loss until they're dead, perhaps?
Better question is: Why can't you just take the win and move on?
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Similar response, because killers objective is kill... If there is a survivor left then killer should kill. Personally I think if the survivor can't win then it's a loss... just a matter of when, after 4min of being slugged? After 20min of hide and seek? After 1 hour server time is over? All leads to same result.
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And survivors' objective is to survive. The hatch is still there. Exit gates are powered during EGC. Why should the survivor be expected to give up and just keel over, but we have to keep bending the game to accommodate killers? Are killer players the only ones that matter?
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so you just confirmed this is nothing but ego thing. You'd just want to unnecessarily waste your opponent's time no matter which side you play just because you want to deny them to finish the match.
And i'm talking both about survivors camping the hatch/waiting at the gate and killers intentionally slugging survivors until their bleedout timer is about to finish and then hook them.
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It's nothing but an ego thing -for the killer-. Slugging the third to fish for a 4K is 100% an ego thing, since it's worth nothing to the killer except ego. Hiding out to fish for a hatch makes the difference between loss and tie and makes a much bigger BP difference, too.
But yes, waiting around the exit is absolutely an ego thing, too and I wish there was a solution for it. Maybe speed up the EGC when all survivors are in the exit gate area.
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I only slug for the 4k when I am trying to get the adept. Imo, they should just rework the hatch mechanic so it's not a coin flip anymore, or just remove it. Killers don't get a mercy kill when all 4 survivors are escaping, so it isn't really necessary a mechanic to help at least on e survivor escape.
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Both slugging and hiding for the hatch are frustrating playstyles, actively encouraged by BHVR's design choices. Instead of revisiting the rough edges of the game's basic concept, they've opted to pile on new features and mechanics, hoping something sticks. And now, here we are. Blaming players for engaging in unfun tactics (as if self-moderation ever worked in online multiplayer) distracts from the real issue: BHVR's failure to address core problems and their reliance on bandaid fixes.
We’re still playing a game without a clearly defined win condition, where the only thing that truly matters is the end result of kill or escape.
Rather than having these endless, unproductive debates between players, maybe it’s time to direct the discussion toward BHVR. Ask for meaningful, foundational changes that could genuinely push the game toward a healthier and balanced state.
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How?
They've said that they will never, ever, ever give solos and SWFs different abilities and perks.
Also - yes. Sweeping balance changes that'll completely upend the game. It's…fun to dream.
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No, some of it is the hiding survivor's fault for also stalling the game out and some of it is why killers might slug for the 4K sometimes, namely the potential of two survivors taking the game hostage in a way BHVR don't seem to care about.
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Glad to know we ain't the only ones who noticed
We know people have already pointed out the points that we're going to point out, but that's the point so we going to point it out again~
First the 1 down and 1 hiding situation. What specifically stops the killer from hooking that 3rd survivor? Fear of hatch? Ok why, since we already pointed out what the killer has done the trial, seems dumb to put it politely. If that third survivor is down already nothing really stops the killer from killing that one and rarely is there a good reason to stall to guarantee the 4k.
Second about healing the slugged mate. As we said before, the killer will usually patrol in a way that lets them keep an eye on the slug. If the hidden survivor tries to help the slug without a specialized build then they go down and the killer slugs them while they chase the picked up one and eventually gets them. That's practically a death sentence for both survivors so understandable they are unlikely to do that. We get it's not all the time but it's common enough that the 3 of us go and look with extreme caution. In addition if the slug actually does go afk after recovering (or sometimes after they been slugged) there's actually zero reason to try and pick them up.
Third:
But the reason why they are left for the full duration of the slug timer is due to killer looking for the last survivor so won't hook them AND the other survivor not healing the team mate due to hiding and also not coming out of hiding so killer can quickly down and hook the last one then go back and hook the slug.
...this sounds a lot like "survivors are to blame for not coming out to die". Remember that the common situation of "slugging for the 4k" is 1 survivor is slugged and 1 is hiding... meaning that 1 survivor is hook-able by the killer (less the killer lost the slug for whatever stupid reason). How is that the fault of the survivor?
Fourth we disagree that these (slugging for the 4k and 2 hiding all game) are related. Both are stupidly annoying true but aside from that both are their own separate forms of beepery.
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They don't have to give them different perks. Just make all info perks basekit because swf doesnt need those perks anyway because they get all their info from coms. Get it? And sweeping balance changes are better than falling back on the "going next on hook" mechanic just so survivor players dont quit the game.
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Based on this comment, you have never seen a killer use a slug as bait? or a killer never slug and hump until bleed out?
Can I have your games? I literally had a killer slug me, look for the last survivor then slug the last survivor until I bled out because they knew I would bleed out first and just had to have their mori. So now we had 2 slugs, me on the floor for 4 minutes and the other person on the floor for around 2.5
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