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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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as survivor you do gens or you're just stalling. stalling forces killer to slug one of you just to speed up game ;) because then you know killer will look for you or will kill 3rd and now its hatch race.
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Because the killer is giving them the proposal. You can either help the teammate and give the killer a more reasonable chance of getting the 4k, or you can hide and let the survivor bleed out. If you hide, it's your choice as survivor. You want to get the hatch and the killer wants to get the kill. It's that simple.
Also, ask yourself why gambling for the last kill with the terrible hatch mechanic is a reasonable course of action? If you should strife for the 4k every game, you should take the actions that give you the most chance of getting it.
By the point you are slugging the third for the fourth, you have already got the dominance to finish the game. All you need to do is finish it. Why give away the last kill if you have already won?
Also, let's say they make Unbreakable basekit. In this scenario, the killer would just slug the survivor over and over to get the 4k. Only 2 survivors are not going to repair 2 or 3 gens by themselves, and if they come close to finishing the last gen, the killer will just hook. Otherwise, they will keep slugging, but the difference is that they will have to down the survivor some extra times.
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Then again, Skull Merchant.
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Slugging in general has become a problem. Just played against a knockout singularity that decided he was going to slug for the 4k at 5 gens. Never DC'd from a match so fast.
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That's more Knockout being a problem. Which…yeah. That perk needs to be changed, it serves no purpose other than being a clown.
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Is this a bit? It's quite literally in rules that survivors can be reported for this.
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I cannot find even an anecdotal account of someone being banned for hiding. I think this is a case of a lame duck rule that simply isn't enforced, maybe because the game is technically advertised as 'hide and seek'.
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Reported for playing the game? LOL if anyone ever shows evidence of being banned for this im uninstalling the game.
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It's technically taking the game hostage, where multiple survivors avoid AFK crows and hide indefinitely without doing gens. But this does not seem to be enforced.
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Is it taking the game hostage, though? While the game does seem to drag on, both sides do have the power to progress the match. It's a bit different from those situations where the Killer bodyblocks a Survivor in the corner where they cannot move or progress the match, and the other three Survivors are dead. That would be taking the game hostage.
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That's spurious and you know it.
By the same logic, that survivor isn't forced to stay in the match, they could just quit. Which is just as silly.
Yes, technically I could get lucky and find the CS/NM/Distortion survivor squad going from locker to locker avoiding AFK crows. But it's not something you can reasonably expect.
This is something that BHVR needs to fix beyond 'oh yeah it might be bannable, hope you record all your games anyway' posts from 4 years ago.
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Because the killer is giving them the proposal. You can either help the teammate and give the killer a more reasonable chance of getting the 4k, or you can hide and let the survivor bleed out. If you hide, it's your choice as survivor. You want to get the hatch and the killer wants to get the kill. It's that simple.
Therefore that makes it the killers responsibility no? As killer you still have a major chance of closing hatch which forces that 4th survivor to stop hiding on pains of in game death.
Also, ask yourself why gambling for the last kill with the terrible hatch mechanic is a reasonable course of action? If you should strife for the 4k every game, you should take the actions that give you the most chance of getting it.
First because we showed our own superiority to sooth our egos by killing a majority of the team. Second it speeds up the game so we can get into the next match quicker, not even thinking about the survivors here, this is pure selfishness. Third we've been around since doc came out and seen how hatch was before, currently this is much better (if a little sad we cant do that 4 man hatch out). Fourth, why should we strive for the 4k every time? Unless pissed off we half arse everything and still manage to do very well and often have fun, so why should we sweat? This is a game for fun. Sweating every match don't seem like fun to the 3 of us. So tell us exactly: why we should make ourselves less happy?
Also, let's say they make Unbreakable basekit. In this scenario, the killer would just slug the survivor over and over to get the 4k. Only 2 survivors are not going to repair 2 or 3 gens by themselves, and if they come close to finishing the last gen, the killer will just hook. Otherwise, they will keep slugging, but the difference is that they will have to down the survivor some extra times.
…soooo where'd this train of thought come from? Don't think any Rulebreaker mentioned anything about this.
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Forgive our sarcastic streak but this is to good to pass up~
So when did we get 4 killers? Why and how is a killer slugged?! Is the new killer Gary?! …wait thats a snail…Also hows a survivor camping?
Ok now that thats out of our system, semi serious mode:
As survivor hiding when it would be suicide otherwise is playing. Theres a limit to it of course such as 2 survivors just hiding without even trying to do gens, but if theres 1 slug 1 up then yes its very often in the up's best interest to hide. The killer isnt hooking meaning that 4 min wait is on them. Hooking that survivor is much less time than the 4 minutes or looking for the fourth (most times anyway). If your chasing a survivor then you have the ability to catch a survivor and hook them bar a major skill difference.
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Your logic makes no sense. It's like if I park my car somewhere and you come and tell me that you want the parking spot for yourself. Of course I am not gonna give you the spot, I arrived there first. You can either wait for me to finish my shopping or go find another parking spot. Getting the 4k is the same thing.
The objective of the game is getting the maximum amount of kills you can, so of course killers want to get the 4k and they are going to use the most efficient way of doing that. If you put an AI to play killer and task it with killing the survivors, they are gonna slug for the 4k because that's their objective.
Yes, slugging for the 4k is boring, but some people find the satisfaction of a perfect game even more satisfying. Fun is not universal.
As I said, at this point in the game the killer is giving the shots, you as the last survivor want to escape as much as the killer wants to 4k, if you didn't, you would just give up. So the survivor is just as guilty as the killer for prolonging the game.
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Your logic makes no sense. It's like if I park my car somewhere and you come and tell me that you want the parking spot for yourself. Of course I am not gonna give you the spot, I arrived there first. You can either wait for me to finish my shopping or go find another parking spot. Getting the 4k is the same thing.
Ok so lets put it this way: Its like the killer is shopping yea and is at the check out with the 4th survivor being the next in line and the 3rd being the clerk. Killer goes "ohh wait I forgot something, let me just go grab it real quick" so the clerk (survivor 3) and the next in line (survivor 4) must now wait for the killer to come back "real quick". If you couldn't tell, "real quick" is sarcastic. That parking analogy makes no sense to us as thats not whats happening.
The objective of the game is getting the maximum amount of kills you can, so of course killers want to get the 4k and they are going to use the most efficient way of doing that. If you put an AI to play killer and task it with killing the survivors, they are gonna slug for the 4k because that's their objective.
While we won't deny some are desperate for the 4k, but some of us don't give a F (for example the 3 of us). None of what you said explains why we should be sweating for the 4k. At all. This is your reasons why you would. We know we got enough points (we usually float around the cap cause we don't really spend much often), we know we killed a majority of the survivors, we know we have a very good chance of finding hatch and guarding doors, we know if they get out its mostly due to luck. Its more than enough for us. Also funny enough, we'd think an AI killer would hook survivors unless they immediately saw the last simply cause it would be both easy to program and more efficient.
Yes, slugging for the 4k is boring, but some people find the satisfaction of a perfect game even more satisfying. Fun is not universal.
Reread the above.
As I said, at this point in the game the killer is giving the shots, you as the last survivor want to escape as much as the killer wants to 4k, if you didn't, you would just give up. So the survivor is just as guilty as the killer for prolonging the game.
If the killer is "giving the shots" then the responsibility falls on the killer….thats how "giving the shots" works in every society that we know of sans hypocrisy. If they do it they do it but own up to it.
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Skull merchant what?
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Be me, killer player
Manage to get 10 hook states and get down to the last two survivors
They're doing a good job stealthing me but I manage to find and knock one of them down
Look around
Can't see where the last survivor is
Try to pick up last survivor
MFW the last survivor hiding makes it literally impossible for me to pick them up and hook the slugged survivor
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Your analogy is wrong because on this scenario the people on the line can simply ignore the person who went to get something and follow their lives. The parking spot analogy is much more precisa because the killer has something by right, and the survivor has to react to it.
Be mindful that the killer giving the shots does not mean that the last survivor has no agency. He can very well give the killer what he wants, but he decides not to. Therefore, the last survivor and the killer are in an agreement on what is going to happen: The last survivor is going to bleed out and the last one is gonna dispute for the hatch. They both are responsible for the time waste.
I don't slug for the 4k unless it's an adept, but I don't condemn people who do it because it's part of the game's objective. An AI would do the same thing, simply because it doesn't have feelings to feel bothered by the waste of time and it would want to kill as many survivors as possible. The problem is the incentive structure that makes slugging for the 4k the most effective way to get it consistently.
And you know what is hypocritical? Pretending that the last survivor who is hiding and letting the other one bleed out isn't acting on its own interests as well.
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There are, as far as I know, at least 3 ways the game can be officially "held hostage". These are against the game rules, and devs have confirmed these are considered hostage situations:
- A survivor being body blocked in a corner and unable to play the game for an excessive amount of time (as long as the EGC has not been started). I'll note that other survivors or the killer can be the ones body blocking here, but killers cannot be body blocked indefinitely this way.
- Two or more survivors hiding and not attempting to progress generators or engage in chase for an excessive amount of time. (The game isn't progressing because of hiding)
- The killer is locking down an area without attempting to down or hook survivors for an excessive amount of time (i.e, camping a 3 gen).
Given that the last one was literally meta for almost a full year, I think it's safe to say that this doesn't result in a ban very often.
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'If you don't fix chess merchant people will just mass DC and quit against her forever, in perpetuity'.
Fast forward a year and BHVR had to deliberately make her unplayable to try and get the endless quitting to end, because survivors literally couldn't forgive her because memes.
Go and look at some of the threads after the SM gutting, where survivors were literally saying 'lol not far enough just delete her and not refund anyone for cosmetics lololol serves those SM mains right'.
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Sort of?
It's more 'okay the last time I had two left and they went down on the pallet, they got the save, into a blind, into me losing them, into me wasting 20 minutes trying to find two people who are going from locker to locker to avoid crows, because I'm on Cenobite and they hate Cenobite'.
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Your analogy is wrong because on this scenario the people on the line can simply ignore the person who went to get something and follow their lives. The parking spot analogy is much more precisa because the killer has something by right, and the survivor has to react to it.
The ignore in this case would be the equivalent of giving themselves up despite the fact that they've been waiting in the line for x amount of time and now got to wait in a new line. In addition, what was to stop the killer from getting everything checked out and then coming back? Or say "screw it its not important"? But if your determined to use yours then wouldn't the "reaction" be to hide which in the "scenario" be waiting for you to move then? Now correct us if we're wrong here when you say "by right" your implying to us that since you got the parking spot (we assume this is the 3rd survivor slugged analog) the other should "react"? Your "correct" analogy still does not compute here.
Be mindful that the killer giving the shots does not mean that the last survivor has no agency. He can very well give the killer what he wants, but he decides not to. Therefore, the last survivor and the killer are in an agreement on what is going to happen: The last survivor is going to bleed out and the last one is gonna dispute for the hatch. They both are responsible for the time waste.
Had a small aneurysm reading some of this. That aside should the survivor give up its game over, but then gives up on their objective in the game. Should the killer hook the game continues and still can kill the 4th and can force said survivor out of hiding. The killer isn't giving up on their objective in this scenario while the 4th has 2 and a half choices (give up, which if they do they might as well always as soon as the killer slugs for the 4k. Hide, which is where we're at now. Try to heal the slug, the half choices, which sometimes is a good option, but only when the killer isn't guarding the slug like a certain magic ring) The killer is actively choosing to stall their objective to gamble later for getting another kill instead of getting to that gamble faster via the hook. As above the survivor is "reacting" to what the the killer did, but since the killer did so it's their responsibility. Cause and effect as it were.
I don't slug for the 4k unless it's an adept, but I don't condemn people who do it because it's part of the game's objective. An AI would do the same thing, simply because it doesn't have feelings to feel bothered by the waste of time and it would want to kill as many survivors as possible. The problem is the incentive structure that makes slugging for the 4k the most effective way to get it consistently.
Cool good for you, we do when it's what we consider a dumb reason. Not the point is it? If we would program an AI killer we'd probably program it to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible. Unless they'd specifically program the ai to slug for the 4k, it would more than likely hook and kill that 3rd survivor if it has no clue where's the 4th is due to it being more efficient (Defined as: achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense) than randomly patrolling the remaining gens.
And you know what is hypocritical? Pretending that the last survivor who is hiding and letting the other one bleed out isn't acting on its own interests as well.
Ya know, we never said the survivor wasn't acting in their own interest~ What we said was that in most societies, the one calling the shots is responsible for the called shots unless that society is a hypocritical one.
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pallet stun areas make up roughly 0.01% of the pathable parts of dbd maps
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I did not mean for it to be an argument. I meant for it to be an observation.
I’m not going to even entertain an argument with anyone who feels this is acceptable because we are never going to agree and we are never going to change each other’s minds. Not everything needs to be polemic.
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Haha what?
I'll see you Nostromo and raise you The Game. It's almost hard to not go down on a pallet there. But sure, replace pallet stun with a good sabo. Or a flashbang, which still seems to be possible to drop inside models with BGP (although this could simply be very good timing plus getting latency'd).
I'm trying to say that there are reasons to try and kill the last two at the same time because it stinks getting stuck in a game forever because two people want to be BM, or are simply both trying for hatch.
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That's…hmm. Either I'm misunderstanding or you're using that word wrong.
Regardless, if you aren't interested in having a discussion, why are you posting in this thread?
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Imma keep it 💯 with you gamer, I think the overlap between "goes for pallet save in a 2v1" and "hides for 20-30 minutes" can best be described as slim to none
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It's rare. But it's also annoying enough that I'll play mean if I have to.
There are a fair few people who want to play hide and seek (note the folks defending it as a legit tactic in this thread). I see 2v1 saves every few matches. It's not like the overlap is that small.
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stalling game is not playing, the game is not moving anywhere, surv is not doing gens (thats their goal) it's almost like taking killer as hostage. hookig 3rd surv is basically giving up so camper can escape (he didnt deserve hatch after hiding, not doing gens and betraying 3rd surv).
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If you have the third survivor, it's not 'taking the killer hostage', since you can just hook them and move to EGC after a minute.
hookig 3rd surv is basically giving up so camper can escape (he didnt deserve hatch after hiding, not doing gens and betraying 3rd surv).
There's no 'betraying' about it, survivors can't do anything in such scenarios since they're not the power role. This is purely on the killer.
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This is a PvP game, and a 4k is worth more MMR than a 3k. That is a perfect reason by itself.
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And everyone getting stuck in a dead-end match for a mind-numbing four minutes is more than enough reason to punish killers for doing it.
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Sometimes the slugged survivor did something cute and I want to let them live, but can't risk the two of them slamming that last gen together and for them both to escape T_T I know, its sounds very specific, but I am kinda regularly in this situation :D
Bonus points, if the 4th survivor gives up when I find them and I then have a hard time killing them off (unless they BMed me all game).
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Pretty much what @Firellius said. Chasing an invisible number that you can't even say what it is and using that to justify wasting everyone's time is not an argument that flies to anyone who has any consideration for the people on the other side of that computer screen.
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The empathy argument is invalid, because it doesn't apply to both sides of the game. What things do survivors do, that lower their chances of survival, out of empathy for killers?
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playing solo q. jk
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This seems like a what-about-ism. Instead of addressing the fact that it's rude to waste other people's time and force their experience to be bad, it's only saying "what about the other side?"
We need to be addressing the experience of both sides. That's true. But talking about one of them doesn't invalidate the need to talk about the other.
The problem is that killers are inherently given much more power on a per-player basis than survivors, and can therefore often wield extreme power over the experience of any individual survivor player. As a result, the killer role will tend to need somewhat more guardrails than the survivor role in order to ensure that any one person's experience can't be arbitrarily ruined by another player. Survivors need those things too; bully squads can be annoying, and in the rare instance that someone hides for 10 minutes or more, they should have a disadvantage. I'd support having a sort of tally of 'goal-oriented actions' for each survivor player once there are only two left. Then if one person is doing more gens, opening more chests, existing more often inside the terror radius, etc., killer instinct could happen more frequently on the player doing fewer goal-oriented tasks.
But slugging for 4k (and tunneling, proxy camping) tends to be something you can count on happening in a large fraction of matches. Meanwhile, I'm confident that most people will say they generally do not see nearly as much hiding for many minutes. Having said that, since bad manners from one person will encourage bm from another, I wouldn't be surprised if some players are more willing to hide out as long as they can to punish a killer who has tunneled, camped, and slugged aggressively, completely ignoring the experience of the other side. I do the same as killer; if I get a bully squad, the gloves come off :/
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...well odd scene but it's still ultimately the killer responsibility. You as killer don't want to kill that one for whatever reason, in this case because they did something cute or a show of...mercy? (don't think that's the right word...)
Neither is slugging the 3rd survivor by that logic. The killer ain't really killing. By hooking you kill that 3rd faster to try for hatch which then forces the 4th to do something or die.
As we or atleast someone probably stated before trying to heal the slug when the killer watches them like a hawk is suicide, doing a gen thats not far away is also a death sentence for said survivor, so what do you expect that one to do? They deserved it just as much as the 3rd did far as we know. Betrayal is in the eye of the beholder, we don't think the other being smart is betrayal. We will criticize our teammates for not funny stupid but will rarely criticize for being smart.
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You could argue a lot of things tbh
A lot of survivors don't bring items, map offerings or full meta builds.
A lot of survivors play soloQ by choice instead of SWFing
Hell some survivors are willing to give hooks/kills to a killer who struggled a lot. Rarely and some killers would rather they don't but it's still a thing that can and has happened.
All of these are things that objectively lower a survivors chance of 'winning'.
Granted you can never know that a survivor's doing this to 'have empathy' for the other side but the fact that survivors do these things at all does show that not everyone is simply minmaxxing trying to always win no matter what they have to do.
Or if you're talking in an actual match, a lot of survivors don't go out of their way to annoy killers when there's plenty of ways to do so like BMing, loud noise spamming. Aka they just play the game normally.
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The double standard is that the list of "bad things that killers do" often helps raise their win rate. Pretty much every killer strategy that helps the killers raise their kill rate, is labeled and demonized as a problem.
Meanwhile, the list of "bad things that survivors do", often involve survivors just doing things purely out of spite.
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That's not a fair equivalence.
Hooking the third survivor isn't equal to a survivor 'lowering their chance of survival', since it's not actually lowering the killer's chance to win. They've already won, in fact. Just hooking that survivor and getting on with the match is more akin to asking survivors not to sit around the exit gate waiting for the killer to show up.
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To be fair it isn't mutually exclusive. Do these things help killers win? Sure. Can they be used out of spite? Sure. You can be an arse with these and it still helps "win".
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It's not so much that there's a double standard, but more that most of the things survivors can do to make a killer's experience worse won't help them win.
If survivors could do something that completely prevented the killer from being able to participate in the game in any reasonable way, that would be bad too. And some people try to do that, which is why bully squads are almost universally disliked. But bully squads don't usually get a lot of gens done against talented killers, and they're less common than tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, so there's less discussion about them.
Meanwhile, several of the things that killers can do that most heavily impact a survivor's experience are also tactics that can make it much easier to win. As killer, it's strikingly easy to tunnel someone out, or use proxy camping to ensure pressure is kept as high as possible by preventing healing and rapidly finding someone to chase, or to get a nearly guaranteed fourth kill by slugging for a 4k. And don't get me wrong; if you pick the wrong target to tunnel out, the game is basically thrown. But all of those things can make it impossible for a survivor to participate in the game in any meaningful way.
Ultimately, there's just not a lot survivors can do to prevent a killer from participating in the game in the way that's expected. But killers have much more control over the experience of any particular survivor in a match, and they can use that control in a way that simultaneously ruins the survivor player's experience and helps the killer do better in the match. But just because something that's rude to do to someone will help the person doing it doesn't make it alright. It's also not so hard to win matches without tunneling, camping, or slugging for 4k.
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The empathy argument is always valid even if your analogy of survivors lowering their chance of winning is non-sensical as the Killer has already won in the situation we're describing. We're now discussing should two other people's time be wasted when the Killer has already won and the Killer gets more BP and faster matches by simply hooking the third survivor (and already has a greater than 50% chance of getting a 4K faster than they would by bleeding out the second last survivor).
The only reason you can even argue this in DbD is because we have no control over whom we're placed against. If players did have control then the people who bleed out for the 4K would either change their behaviour or have nobody to play with as nobody would choose to play against them just as it happens to people with that attitude in real life, the comp setting or anywhere where people have influence over whom they face.
And, yes, I have seen survivors lower their chance of winning out of empathy. I've done it; just a couple days ago after a Myers running both iris caught the third survivor I deliberately ran up to the Killer so the Myers could get the achievement they were most likely going for. That's not the first time I've done something like that nor will it be the last.
However, stories like that won't get talked about as much as negative stories as people prefer to complain than praise but I have also seen other survivors do similar things. So, while uncommon, you can't say it never happens. I will say it will probably never happen to a Killer who just wants to win at all costs because they're the type of player who, if people were choosing matches in real life, people would want to avoid playing anything with them.
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Ill be honest in my 3k hours of playing I have never seen the last 2 survivors both hide and evade for so long it wastes time. What have seen is time and time again is the killer prolonging the match to slug for 4k both maliciously and not. They have even waited till the last second then pick them up and hook or mori just to waste as much time as possible
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Then either you need to start buying lotto tickets or you're telling pork pies.
I've been playing for slightly longer. I see it maybe once a day. Last two both want hatch (or to be nasty) so will go from locker to locker hoping I find the other one first.
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Idk with good game sense you should generally have an idea where survivors are. Id like to see an example of one of your games thats somehow a daily occurrence
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good game sense
I typically find the largest complainers of this "two survivors hiding problem" are missing this vital piece. Especially because the complaints claim this happens "regularly".
Sounds like, if people are "regularly" completely stomping teams, as some people claim, to where this is a problem then there's tons of room in their build as well.
Whispers (uncounterable, will locate the survivors for you), pick an aura read (distortion got nerfed just for this), and since they have to move to avoid crowds the killer could pick iron maiden instead. Pick one.
The only reason this might happen regularly is if the killer lacks have sense and also thinks they need 4 slowdowns every game. So I agree with you, let's see some of their gameplay.
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not doing your job is stalling, game is basically paused, killer cant kill beacuse they move from locker to locker so they avoid crows… killer can't find them. they are not doing gens so they can't escape too but one of them is douchebag and will give up on 3rd guy like always so he can escape after wasting 20 minutes.. that's literally taking game hostage XD because it can't end, 2 survs are preventing me from killing them by hiding in lockers and avoiding crows.
sooo if they can't win then take the L and go for another game instead of stalling or taking hostage.0 -
how is slugging for 4k not playing game? XD one is dying slowly so i have time to find 4th, he has chance to help 3rd or be pu*** and keep hiding but after 4 minutes and always 4 minutes he can't hide anymore… you rly don't understand why anyone is slugging 3rd surv, you are probably the 4th toxic surv who doesn't care about team and only plays for hatch hiding half game and then when killer doen't kill 3rd guy immediately you attack him after game. no, you don't deserve hatch if you don't even try to cooperate with your team… you play as team, if youre selfish and not helping them then you don't deserve to escape more than anyone, that's why i never kill 3rd guy immediately if 4th surv isn't around. that's not being smart lmao, you hide, you're not smart XD, you're not looping, stunning killer, using perks, you just hide XD
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