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Something needs to be done about the "Go next" epidemic
Comments
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If you or I were to hypothetically win 99% of our games on, say, Killer; that does not mean Killer is OP.
That was the logic you were using earlier. You can be a statistical outlier, but that doesn't mean that the game is X-sided.
Your own personal experience doesn't dictate the balance of the game at large
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Cause of it needs to be fixed but bhvr has done nothing but make it worse so thats not happening.
If go next is somehow disabled without any of its causes fixed, then its a go next on this game lol1 -
the game stopped being survivor sided a long time ago
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Nothing needs done. If a survivor is getting slugged or camped or tunneled we should have the option to suicide on hook and move on. Matter of fact we should have a feature to make it happen faster.
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And how do you do on killer? Are the numbers the inverse of what they are of your survivor rating? Do they match BHVR's projections of a 60% kill rate when you play killer?
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i know, that's just how the dbd community is. Lack of proper ranking system in this game severely affected mentalities of people, thinking they are playing at some very high MMR so they can throw a tantrum over game balance when they lose instead of looking at every possible chain of mistakes they/their teammates make during matches
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no they are not inverse. Like pulsar states, your always going to do better than average states like with his legion example. All i am saying is that you do not need accept the average statistics as only kill-rate. you can get better and outperform whatever the stats say.
tru3 states that dbd is in the most survivor sided state that it has ever been. He's been playing the game since beta dbd.
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“tru3 states that dbd is in the most survivor sided state that it has ever been. He's been playing the game since beta dbd.”
Yeah the dude that wins most of his games yet complains about everything.
Yeah sorry I don’t care about his biased takes14 -
All i am saying is that you do not need accept the average statistics as only kill-rate. you can get better and outperform whatever the stats say.But that's true of every game, video or otherwise. Some people outperform the numbers. It's a basic fact about how averages work. I don't know how you take that and have it mean anything about game design.
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tru3 states that dbd is in the most survivor sided state that it has ever been. He’s been playing the game since beta dbd.
So because tru3 states it, it is true?
And also, are you really so unaware as to think the current state of the game is more survivor sided than when DS was usable on no hooks, DH for distance was in the game, killers had longer animations and cooldowns, survivors got more distance on hit, gens were shorter, heals were shorter, and there were genuine infinites in the game?
Killer is in one of if not the best spots they’ve been in aside from broken metas like the gen kick meta.
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Plenty of people buy the game under the assumption that they're a solo player and not part of a team. It literally says in the game's advertising that 1v1 is fine.
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Well to be fair, back in beta we had things like, insta mori. And also people generally didn't know how to play very well. Back then "looping" wasn't really a thing because the game was more akin to a hide and seek, whereas now its more like a game of freeze tag.
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You could also counter DS back then by "dribbling" the survivor.
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The problem really boils down to it being a cultural issue as well as a fundamental misunderstanding for how the game works. The job of the killer is to kill. There's different ways of going about it but it's usually hooking that's the most consistent and the most beneficial, not always but in the vast majority of cases it's beneficial to hook sacrifice survivors. Since killer is technically the power rule it's usually ditacted by them how the flow of the match goes. Aside from giving out incentives to tough it through a match there's really not much that BHVR can do to fix the "gg go next" epidemic outside of reworking the fundamental dynamic of the game itself and that's why this issue will remain as a cultural one.
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inc killer mains who just want an easy win to feel good. Survivor side of game is a massive problem, its just not fun, too hard especially with no comms in soloq. its just a frustrating experience that WILL kill the game. Devs dont seem to care so it is what it is, hopefully some smart devs will look at what BHVR did wrong and make a better game some day in the same genre.
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The games are often not worth playing in solo queue. Why sit through a guaranteed 10 minute loss when you can try to get a better game? Who wants to keep playing a game where you just had a chase across the entire map and nobody on your team touched a gen the entire time?
That's what players who go next are saying. This trial isn't worth playing. When it's happening a lot, that means a lot of players think a lot of trials aren't worth playing.
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I genuinely refuse to play Survivor rounds with randoms. I either bring in a team of 2 or 3 other people, or I give up and go play Killer. It's not because of Killer players either. It's because every other round, the random throws, the random dies on hook, the random DCs and we get a really terrible bot player. And the Killer justifiably goes "well, I might as well just end this quickly then, bad match". We all discuss in the EGC after and all are upset the person left, Killer included.
This is a problem. There need to be stricter DC penalties and hook suicides must be removed. If someone throws it needs to be counted as a DC and penalized.
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"Why sit through a guaranteed 10 minute loss when you can try to get a better game?"
Because you leaving can be what leads to your teammates guaranteed 9 minute loss. People play really fast and loose with whats "guaranteed" in this game, especially when it comes to wins or losses. Same goes for killers, but its distinctly present with survivors due to both their ease of exit, their reliance on people other than themselves, and their sheer number of players it affects. There is no way of knowing exactly how many "unwinnable" games were actually winnable, but the moment someone leaves (or even just gives up and starts sandbagging or feeding) that prophecy generally becomes very self-fulfilling. For 4 people at once.
And in case someone's thinking it, no, I'm not saying unwinnable games don't exist for either side, especially survivor. I'm saying that its much more often an excuse than a valid assessment.
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The hard truth that a lot of people don't want to talk about, is that the epidemic is because generally Surv is in the worst state it's ever been in. Sure the game is fun for SWF, because you're playing with friends, but in general, SoloQ is miserable and the worst it's ever been.
Every Killer is prepping for the worst match of their life (for good reason since SFW are unbalanced) and plays like they're expecting it, camping/tunneling/slugging. Maps have been nerfed and Surv perks have been nerfed while Killers basekits have been buffed/re-worked with buffs.
If BHVR tries to punish giving up on hook, the game will lose players incredibly quickly. You cannot force players to give up their most valuable resource, their time, when they're not having fun. Video games are for fun, not for being forced to afk or participate in miserable experiences otherwise they get a DC pan of three days.
What BHVR can do, is try to make the game more fun. Changing SWF mechanics to bring SWF more in line and close the gap of SoloQ vs SWF so that balancing overall is easier instead of changing everything to give Killers an edge over a 4-man sweat squad. There's a lot of ways to go about it, but players don't want to give up their unfair advantages, on both sides, and SoloQ regular Survivor players are getting all the punishment.
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But if people are killing themselves on hook to get out of the game fast anyway and this happens more often than not, then why even bother queuing up to play the game.
And again, this isn't about "tunneling or camping" or anything like that. People will just kill themselves at the slightest thing, unless you are playing perkless trapper people are still gonna give up. And even then, some content creators were doing an experiment where they did just that and they STILL had people give up immediately. Like what do you want from people at this point?
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yes its awful. And killer is way too easy now, that it is boring imo. I had more fun as killer when survivors had a chance. Soloq survivor is probably the worst game experience out there right now. Why punish yourself to play it other than to complete a challenge real quick? even that can be painful. Devs dont give a damn so I expect the game to keep bleeding players. Instead of fixing the game they just add survivor bots to fill in for the players that gave up and quit the game. soon it will be a killer only game with nothing but survivor bots, but that seems to be what the killer only players who dont want any kind of challenge WANT the game to be, so be it. All my friends quit who played survivor for a reason.
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It isn't even that.
I can literally play as kind as non meta as possible, I can go in not doing ANYTHING bad, I can go in playing friendly and spread hooks and be super chill, I can go in and purposefully try to lose.
And the second someone loses a chase with me, sees I'm a Killer they dislike, or they make a minor mistake I don't even try to correct, they still DC.
It's 100% not just Survivors not having a chance, because when I purposefully give them a chance they still do it.0 -
Honestly I think The Game, Mother's Dwelling, and Nostromo should be moved to the "neutral" section since I feel like those are both maps that either side can easily leverage to their benefit.
The Game has a lot of strong pallets that most M1 Killers cannot play around, and depending on the Killer you can easily get stomped. Inexperienced Survivors can also waste all the pallets and create massive deadzones for your entire team. In my opinion, it is one of the most centrist maps in the game since it's strength shifts towards Killers or Survivors based on so many different variables that it roughly equates to the center when you consider everything.
Mother's Dwelling is large, and the main building is decent, but there is a large amount of deadzones on the map and half the filler pallets have those tiny rocks that you can just walk around so half the time they are useless if you dont get the stun or they have Enduring. This is one of those maps where the map size is the only redeeming quality about it since it makes the Killer's job of defending Generators significantly harder.
Nostromo has a bunch of decent loops and a bunch of really weak, mindgame-able loops. Outside of the god pallet at a main building, there is basically nothing redeeming about the main building and it just serves to do nothing but take space and pretend to be loop while containing actually nothing. The only redeeming quality of this map is it takes so long to get from Point A to Point B as Killer so Generators are significantly harder for the Killer to pressure.
Overall, I really dont think there are that many "Survivor-sided" maps in the game, most are neutral or "Killer-sided" at the moment.
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When it's as bad as it is now, people don't have any incentive to play soloq so yes they will go next even more than usual because it's not fun anymore. It's the natural progression. So what you say tracks with my post. I expect it to continue to get worse, and my prediction is it will come to a head when they get bunch of new players from the FNAF chapter.
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Yes but you made yourself vulnerable to flashlight saves and the amount of time to get one hook because of dribbling was massive.
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Yeah but how exactly are you fixing this? A miserable experience in this game is a subjective thing. That mean we would have to let the devs decide what an "unfun" thing in this game
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They shouldn't be devs if they dont know what fun gameplay is lmao
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Imma be honest alot of the maps you listed as killer sided are actually pretty balanced. In what world is suffocation put on either variant killer sided? Sure rng can be bad but the maps are huge. Similar situation with Greenville, huge map, but relatively bad resources, therefore very poor design and unfun experience for both sides.
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Oh yea, you disagree with me you are noob mentality.
I have over 4k hours in this game and half of it is on survivor. I am doing just fine with killer while i am having terrible time on survivor.
When one survivor dies at 3 generators left, no it's very much unwinnable match. Unless killer is so bad or playing with terrible perks.
That's why best killer strategy is killing at least one survivor before last 2 generators. Because at this point, you are having nature slowdown. One survivor is on hook, one survivor in chase and the last one have to go for save. No survivor is on generator.
If BHVR want to stop give ups from survivor-side, they need to make game more fun for survivors and fix how hopeless games are. And the next time you disrespect me and call me noob for my opinion you won't get any answer. So don't bother to reply me if you are gonna be disrespectful again.
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True, but back then flashlight saves were much much harder to do because you had to be near frame perfect on your timing.
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By making it not possible. Remove the 4% mechanic, and start punishing survivors who grief their team by throwing matches. No different than how it works now where you can report people for body blocking and griefing that way.
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Why do people "Go next"? Simple.. Killer is too easy.. like the amount of times as a survivor you spawn in a dead zone, killer brings lethal.. survivor gets found in the first 5 seconds of a match, instantly downed because there's no pallets. Hooked before anyone even has a chance to touch a gen. Why would you want to stay when you're already starting at a deficit?
Also Singularity and Houndmaster exist.. those are auto go next.6 -
yeah but back then dead hard alone made the game survivor sided. One perk countered every killers power.
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Did you seriously quote Tru3 and think that was some mic drop moment? Honestly, quoting him hurts your entire argument from the beginning of this thread.
Words of advice, watch another streamer. Any other streamer and you'll be a better person for it.
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If they do that:
+ People will just stop play DbD which is no company would want. You are losing customers which is buying skins and dlcs to support your game.
+ Survivor exp will be more miserable. Because game is forcing you to stay in a match you actually don't want.
+ Killer queues will be so much worse since people either forced stay in a match they don't want or they just uninstalled game. Less survivor players in queues.
+ That's not solution at all. They still can ruin game for everyone with no ban risk. They can run to killer. They can just farm totems and chests and not progress the game. They can miss skill checks on generator to make killer find them. And you can't know if they were just trying to go next or bad teammates. No moderator can tell either. And no you can't ban people for being bad at game.
Your solution is just creates more problems. If they want to fix this game, it's pretty simple:
Nerf overpowered killers aka Nurse, Blight, Billy, Spirit etc.
Add limit to generator regression perks. They should not stack.
Rebalance maps and make them more fair for both sides. They should not favour killers.
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That's the thing, people literally aren't playing SoloQ Surv as much anymore and queue times are getting longer. Yea people like to spout that Survs will kill themselves over "anything", but generally that's not true and it's due to Surv being in such an awful state that people don't want to sit in a losing match that has no benefits or gameplay, not even bloodpoint wise.
The vast majority of my SoloQ matches, someone either DC's or kills themselves on hook because the Killer is tunneling them out at 5 or 4 gens. It;s happening almost every single match. There's also a ton of nonstop slugging going on and people quickly DC out of that, not even caring about the DC penalty, because it's just not fun. Then Killers getting buffed to such insanely easy levels to be able to compete with SWF with the constant map nerfs and Surv perk nerfs, SoloQ has been decimated.
As other people brought up some good points. I see a lot of high mobility Killers using Lethal Persuer every single match and aside from Killers literally spawing ontop of Survs rn in most of these small maps anyway, with Lethal they B-Line to Survs who most times spawn in dead zones. So someone goes down 10 seconds later because there's literally nothing around and then they are camped or tunneled to death; it's not fun so they go next in the hope that the next match is fun. Then we have all these anti-loop Killers yet theres hardly any actual loops left in the majority of maps. I run WoO and it's crazy how most times there's not a pallet or window anywhere.
Also, all this talk about how Survs shouldn't be DCing or giving up on Hook because they should be considerate of the players in the match… is ironic. When people bring up how Killers are tunneling/camping/slugging it always get thrown around how Killers don't owe anyone a playstyle or shouldn't care about the fun of other players. Yet Survs get thrown under the bus and blamed for not wanting to be held captive in an awful game facilitated by awful Killers.
I play Killer just as much as I play SoloQ and I don't have anyone DC or give up on hook in my matches, I also never slug/tunnel/camp because it's skill-less and as the power role, I want to facilitate a good match that's engaging.
So many people here want more punishment for Survs when all that is going to accomplish is killing the game and having the majority of Surv players being SWF and judging by how many Killers lobby dodge if I spawn into a lobby with 3 other players who are on the same system as me so they think we are a SWF, they definitely wouldn't like most matches being against SWF.
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If you do that people would just stop playing this game and go play something else.
Current dbd player numbers are quite low honestly and given that there are some alternatives, people would just play something else.
And, of course, spend their money somewhere else.
If BHVR does nothing this number would decline. Try to persuade someone then to come back to game that you remembered were big slugging, tunneling, waste of time simulator and a lot of changes were in killer's favour.
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a lot of changes were literally brought to catter to casual players on both sides, you got plethora of anti-slugging perks, basekit anti-tunneling, basekit anti-camping and somehow it all boils down to your teammates doing wrong things (and ofc you too).
So constantly blaming killers and devs for balance when soloQ is literally fest of people doing vast things to throw your games is highly hypocritical. I can't even count how many times my soloQ matches were lost purely thanks to my teammate(s) throwing the match in any way
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What kind of basekit anti-tunneling is there? Seems not to work at all given how many people are complaining about tunneling.
Same with anti-slug, it's just Unbreakable (because FTP+BU got nerfed, same with WGLF) which only works once and if 2-3 people are downed this match is already lost.
It's anti-face-camp, because killer can still be near hook and this laughably bad progressbar won't fill up.
Also ofc, lemme bring dedicated perks to somehow counter killers that play scummy and I can do nothing about it otherwise.
And then there will be 1 perk slot that I can use for anything else.
Or devs buff another perk like Thrill of the Hunt and now I have to bring 6 (out of 4 available <3) perks to the match to counter yet another otherwise uncounterable dumb killer combo.
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Because Suffo has the tendency to spawn 4 gens on one side, thereby making half of the map irrelevant to the Killer.
Greenville isn't honestly that big, but it has about thirty thousand garbage pallets. If there was an annoying tier, it might be first.
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What kind of basekit anti-tunneling is there? Seems not to work at all given how many people are complaining about tunneling.
basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point. If you really struggle with tunneling woth the latest StB iteration, you are just plain refusing to improve at this game and are expecting tunneling to have an autopilot kind of sorting out.
Same with anti-slug, it's just Unbreakable (because FTP+BU got nerfed, same with WGLF) which only works once and if 2-3 people are downed this match is already lost.
Unbreakable, Boon:Exponential, Soul Guard (with hex perks being used so often nowadays, you are literally giving yourself perma self pickups).
On the other side, slugging is literally encouraged by all perk designs, mechanics and playstyles that are simply not rewarding killer for hooking anymore, but instead straight punishing them.
It's anti-face-camp, because killer can still be near hook and this laughably bad progressbar won't fill up.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy. Plus, not killer's fault that your teammates are lurking for the unhook and are slow8ng down the progress bar.
Also ofc, lemme bring dedicated perks to somehow counter killers that play scummy and I can do nothing about it otherwise.
scummy play in the rulebook: any kind of optimal play that is being optimized for the win. Besides, if you don't do anything to counter specific strategies, don't complain that they are being used so much, because that's the reason why they are meta. Because people are refusing to counter them.
And then there will be 1 perk slot that I can use for anything else.
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Or devs buff another perk like Thrill of the Hunt and now I have to bring 6 (out of 4 available <3) perks to the match to counter yet another otherwise uncounterable dumb killer combo.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have? I thought it's boring to just sit and repair gens? Besides, time to learn that you are quite often not supposed to cleanse hexes, but i guess that "if it glows it goes" mentality is so engraved deep into mind that you'd not care about NOT cleansing specifing totems being the actual optimal play instead of cleansing them (Plaything, Undying, Ruin so that you can deny Penti value to the killer).
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basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point.
BT is, was, and always has been anti camping. 10 seconds is absolutely nothing... Except if the killer is actively near the hook.
It's also completely ignored if the killer can either count to 10, or .. it's also completely incompatible with your "plethora of perks" for anti tunneling. Since nearly everything except DS is endurance based, even killers who can't count to ten can just weaponize base kit BT to disable all of your "anti tunnel" endurance completely.
And DS is just a polite suggestion. There's no perk, mechanic, or item in this game that stops tunneling. Nothing. All anything does is add a couple seconds to your tunneling experience. Wouldn't want to actually inconvenience the tunneling killer or dissuade them from that choice.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy
Sorry no. It's not anti camp, it's anti FACE camp. That's been the response to "this mechanic seems ineffective" since they announced it.
You can't just suddenly say it's an anti camping feature that should always work because your want it to count. This is completely circumvented by the killer standing 11m from the hook. So basically the killer has to choose to allow this to do literally anything (and thus, it does nothing).
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Congratulations, you're the one killer who doesn't complain about this. Gen rushing is only possible as a response to toolboxes. Survivors can't physically gen rush you without perks and items specifically for it.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are base kit for killers. The only protections at all are perks, and mild suggestions to "please, don't do that mr killer" that are actually dead simple to bypass.
Where's the survivor version of corrupt btw? There isn't any way to, say, prevent one person from being hooked twice before the first gen is done (or something). Survivors physically have to leave gens during CI, and there's no way to circumvent this effect. It's not like standing slightly farther away from the gen removes the entity claws.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have?
This is just being disingenuous. You either don't realize that the giga buffed thrill was obscenely overpowered and could basically win the game for the killer (which seems unlikely), or you do realize that and are just basically lying to be deliberately inciteful at this point.
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BT is, was, and always has been anti camping. 10 seconds is absolutely nothing... Except if the killer is actively near the hook.
It's also completely ignored if the killer can either count to 10, or .. it's also completely incompatible with your "plethora of perks" for anti tunneling. Since nearly everything except DS is endurance based, even killers who can't count to ten can just weaponize base kit BT to disable all of your "anti tunnel" endurance completely.
10s to run to nearest safe/filler tile, not to brainlessly hold W in a deadzone and wonder how killer just counted to 10 behind your back and downed you.
Sorry no. It's not anti camp, it's anti FACE camp. That's been the response to "this mechanic seems ineffective" since they announced it.
You can't just suddenly say it's an anti camping feature that should always work because your want it to count. This is completely circumvented by the killer standing 11m from the hook. So basically the killer has to choose to allow this to do literally anything (and thus, it does nothing).
Bubba standing in front of the hook, nodding to you and eventually hitting on hook, waiting for you to die on it. One of examples and a reason why anti-facecamp meter was implemented.
Congratulations, you're the one killer who doesn't complain about this. Gen rushing is only possible as a response to toolboxes. Survivors can't physically gen rush you without perks and items specifically for it.
People who complain about genrushing in general are the ones that fail to understand how crucial first chase, map pressure and when to do what is important.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are base kit for killers. The only protections at all are perks, and mild suggestions to "please, don't do that mr killer" that are actually dead simple to bypass.
same as stealthing, looping and sticking to gens. Not toxic at the base at all, all of those have their given use at a given moment, but can grow up into toxic ways to play.
Where's the survivor version of corrupt btw? There isn't any way to, say, prevent one person from being hooked twice before the first gen is done (or something). Survivors physically have to leave gens during CI, and there's no way to circumvent this effect. It's not like standing slightly farther away from the gen removes the entity claws.
there is no survivor version of Corrupt because they don't need one. Corrupt is basically a necessity for almost every single killer due to things like time until first chase can be found and determining 3-gen location.
This is just being disingenuous. You either don't realize that the giga buffed thrill was obscenely overpowered and could basically win the game for the killer (which seems unlikely), or you do realize that and are just basically lying to be deliberately inciteful at this point.
i am not talking about previous Thrill, i was the one to vouch for it's nerf too because it was extremely obnoxious to face.
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