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Killer behaviour is appalling during events
Comments
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Oh for sure. It's on BHVR to implement a solution to address it, because certain player types are always going to behave like that. The Bartle taxonomy of player types is an interesting read. It's pretty clear what type these players fall under. It's really no different than any competitive sport. Basketball had to introduce a shot clock because teams would hold the ball and stall. Baseball had to introduce a pitch clock. There are many examples.
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It's such a sad state that we have to thank people for being kind just for talking about a vidoegame haha but I do appreciate it (and I do understand it's unfortunately kind of rare on here to have polite conversations especially when people disagree) I see your perspective, and even though I don't necessarily agree as I belive gen-rushing, much like tunneling, has very strict 'requirements' I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
I won't discuss it further on this post, (only because it's not necessarily in line with the topic and I dont want to clog it up more than I already have haha) but perhaps on a different post on this specific topic or message or something we can talk more on it. Always looking for more perspectives to better understand other people. Have a good one, gliyn! :)
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Not a kiler-only problem. Both sides seem to be upping the ante when it comes to sweating now that they dont have their meta builds. It's been horrendous, really.
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Imagining the football equivalent: "Cheap shotting the opposing team's quarterback and breaking his knee is just the most efficient strategy to win!"
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Exactly :)
The person I was responding to was defending tunneling by saying DBD is essentially a game of Tag. But it would be really weird if I were it and then tagged someone and then just kept chasing them. The analogy didn't make much sense to me :/
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Literally. Hip drop tackles on the QB used to be commonplace until the 2010s. Ended Joe Theismann's career.
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Never demanded anything??
I'm just asking for a basic amount of human decency when everyone is here to have fun. Why would anyone want to still participate if their experience is repeatedly ruined by others who only care about themselves? It's crappy and selfish. No one HAS to go out of their way to ruin it for others just to secure a win.
Again it's sad some of you can't discern that when interacting with other people. You can still be mindful of others and play to win, they aren't inherently tied.11 -
Right?
It doesn’t matter why you’re doing it. Whether you’re doing it to grief or doing it because you feel it necessary, the match is still ruined for everyone else.
Not being able to understand why people find it disagreeable is indicative of a lack of experience in similar real-life situations IMHO.
Reminds me of a guy I used to play football with who’d intentionally kick the ball super far out of the court when things weren’t going his way. Like there’s no specific rule about kicking the ball hard, but it’s still bad manners because now someone has to walk through all the long grass to retrieve it. No one is going to want to play with you if you’re constantly finding ways to interrupt or subvert normal play. And it’s bizarre to me how people aren’t getting that.
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THIS 100%
I don't know why it's so hard for people to grasp that it still sucks no matter how to try to paint it. There's no reason that makes it better or okay.
Damn, I feel that. Had a similar situation with a friend during basketball. She would turn when things didn't go her way and start getting rough. Even purposely keep the ball away because she wanted to be the only one to make the shot.
And yeah, no one wants to play with people like that. This is the kind of stuff you learn even in kindergarten.16 -
Right, you are just asking with a little emotional blackmail on the side. Nevermind that gamers who actually do that are unlikely to read this in the first place as they are too busy making another lobby miserable. Fact is that is within the laid out rules of the game. I'm not a fan of this either and if I had the choice I would skip those lobbies, too, but this is what the current state of the game allows.
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Right, you are just asking with a little emotional blackmail on the side
It’s not emotional blackmail to tell someone that their behaviour is disagreeable and ask them to cease it. Especially when said behaviour is almost universally disliked lol
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Either way none of that changes anything.
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I find your post very interesting and you're clearly a person with an investigative and analytical attitude. I like that.
I asked myself the same question, also analyzed the general consensus and found that there is none. It's a lack of cohesive definition on a macro level since on the micro level the individual definitions do not align.
This is not exclusive to this specific term, but to the perception of Dead by Daylight in general, which is in my opinion a prime factor contributing to the current "disorderly" state of the community.
But to answer your question:
To me personally "Genrushing" is neither negative nor positive as it is a strategy that can be employed in order to achieve a goal. On a macro level the entire team of survivors knowingly has to participate in this strategy in order for there Genrush strategy to reach its maximum potential. On a Microlevel this means that Perks and Items which focus on maximizing this strategies potential must be chosen. It is also necessary to utilize these perks and items in a meaningful way to the best of ones ability to rush gens. In other words if I have the perks and hide in a corner, am I a genrusher?
Given that all survivors knowingly chose to utilize this strategy to whatever success, we can say that the gamestate is thus such, that the gens are getting rushed. From a killers perspective this is an apparent fact of the gamestate. Whether or not the survivors are successful depends on an incredibly complex set of circumstances.
Given the unpredictable nature of SoloQ, true genrushing in its maximum potential is probably exceptionally rare.
Here we could easily philosophize the nature of time, the experience of time and what "rushing" really means. And here, naturally you will again come to the conclusion that there is no clear definition.
The inherent difficulty in defining Genrushing lies in the overall loose definition of what Dead by Daylight is, as well as a myriad of ideas of what Dead by Daylight ought to be.
Personally, I play both sides equally, and I do believe that I have a strong grasp on the games fundamentals. The soloQ experience is very varied with games lasting from mere minutes to 25 minutes+. Mind you the the majority of my playtime both on Survivor and Killer is spent playing without any perks, addons and items.
From experience, the extreme cases of genrushing requires a coordinated swf and is in itself an impressive feat of teamwork that is nonetheless object to the knowledge and skill of the killer they are facing. If I can identify a genrush early and am successful in reading the other teams play style I am now faced with an incredible task of identifying or even creating weakspots.
If the execution of the survivor team is flawless, if I do not manage to capitalize on any mistakes or create weakspots, the defeat can feel overwhelming. I just got genrushed. What an experience, how can I counter it?
I feel a big part of this is the Map Design that can either favor killers or survivors in terms of available resources. On a resource heavy map, given those same survivors from above, the experience of my time rushing by will be a lot more intense than on maps that offer less in terms of defense for survivors.
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Its always the same with events. The moment they go live killers get crazy and just want to make a fun mode being a torture chamber. And devs just refuse to change anything about being able to play like this. Like, why did they have time to make oberlay animations for the perks (though you can even see the perks before on the menu screen) but do not improve a single thing about the mode at all?
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"Emotional blackmail"?? 😂
I don't know how you got that from what I wrote, but I think you need to read it again.
And as OP said, there's nothing about wanting someone to stop said behavior no one likes that has to do with blackmail.Post edited by Nocturnum on10 -
There is a difference between wanting something and the degree of whining you did.
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Can confirm: that person wasn't whining. They just expressed that things like tunneling/proxy camping in the early game can completely ruin someone's match for essentially no other reason than someone was afraid they might not win at a game. And that's not because the person doing it might not be able to participate, it's because they might not outright win. Meanwhile, they deny one person the ability to enjoy the game at all, making them unable to participate in most aspects of the game and instead essentially guaranteeing that they can't survive the match.
Why would someone pay money for a game when that's going to happen? Also, why would someone even wait for a match when that's going to happen? It becomes a waste of time and money.
Also, this isn't a case of emotional blackmail. That person is trying to discuss how those actions make people feel. That's similar to talking about how bullying makes people feel, and why it shouldn't be done. That's different than emotional blackmail, which is a dishonest attempt at using guilt to manipulate people into doing things. This is not a case of dishonesty for such a purpose.
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Because many of us read and upvote comments, but don't want to be directly involved in the drama.
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Thanks for being understanding. And yeah, I never demanded or whined about anything. I'm not trying to guilt or blackmail anyone either. I don't know why some people have to take what I'm saying in bad faith. I simply want the bad behavior in this game to stop so everyone can enjoy their time playing it instead of being an the mercy of someone who's actively denying their ability to play. Nobody likes that, it's pretty cut and dry.
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If you allow me to give you one advice.
Try playing custom lobbies instead of SoloQ. Find some people that you can play with and arrange a couple of games.
It might seem out of place but I would like to tell you a story of what happened to me today so that you might be able to make yourself a picture of what DBD can do for you, and what you can do for DBD.
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I strongly believe we have an upvote bot or vote-buffing issue on these forums
We really don't. I've been on this forum for 6(?) years now and while it definitely has its issues, this is not one of them.
being banned, making new accounts, and then getting access back to old accounts and logging in to vote the posts up on their current one.
Also not a thing. Alt accounts, in any capacity, are prohibited here. Of course there's some people out there who flout the rules and do it anyway, but they tend to get removed pretty quickly. There will definitely be some that slip through the cracks but not in an amount big enough to cause the type of vote buffing you're describing.
Not even 30+ people are participating in this thread, so how are some people getting 30+ upvotes
Not everyone likes to be actively involved in a conversation, but they may still feel strongly about the topic so they find who/what they agree with, drop an upvote, and go. It's not unusual for threads to get more upvotes than participants.
I see plenty of people here very calmly and rationally pointing out that EVERYONE is being jerks in the event queue getting nothing or few upvotes, while many people who are being one-sided or us vs. them are getting lots of upvotes
Or maybe it is because one side has a greater ability to grief. You'll find an equal number of poor sports in both roles, but it's rare that "toxic" survivors can do as much damage as a "toxic" killer. Teabagging survivors are unpleasant and they shouldn't be doing that, of course, but it doesn't interfere with your ability to actually play the game as killer. You can still chase them, still hit them, still hook them, etc. But a killer? They can actively stop you from playing. They get a down, and then spend 4 minutes WSing you while you bleed out with no ability to do anything. Or they can choose the opposite extreme. Instead of dragging the match out for you, they can just tunnel you out early and you're left with no points or pips.
There's no real equivalent thing the survivors can inflict on the killer, at least not in solo queue. The most comparable thing would be a stacked SWF bringing strong toolboxes, rushing the generators, and ending the match ASAP. But teams like this are rare to run into. Most SWFs aren't doing this, and we know that because, statistically, they escape at much the same rate as solo queue survivors. These people definitely exist. But as the exception, not the rule.
Hence the disparity in upvotes. It's not that we think killers have a monopoly on bad behaviour. It's that bad behaviour on the killer side is generally more subversive due to them being the power role.
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You raise some good points here that I will definitely into consideration, I also agree with you on several parts here.
I've seen 'em all, from the absolute toxic games where the endgame lobby devolves into name calling, confirming that actions previously during the match were both inflicted with ill intend and perceived in bad faith.
The survivor is in the following predicament→ "I am in a bad mood therefore the killer is tunneling"
The killer →"This cocky survivor is probably running META builds, I saw him TBag me when he got that pallet stun and now they unhook in my face"
On the other hand I have had games that were absolutely wonderful where everyone had fun, we talked in the engame chat, signed our steam profiles, maybe even added friends and played custom matches. Absolutely amazing moments where I made friends with people far beyond Dead by Daylight. Because I allow them to happen. I allow the other guy to be good. To outplay me. I invite you to. Teach me how to beat you.
A good fraction of players are very emotionally invested when it comes to Perks, Strategies and general ingame behavior (tbagging, excessive flashlight to the face at every pallet, hitting survivors on hook, nodding). Note that I did not mention slugging and tunneling because with this we are about to open a can of worms that not a lot of people here can stomach, I fear.
Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.
I focus a lot on fundamentals in this game. No perks, no addons, no Items, nothing. I literally play a P0 Quentin who has yet to read that bloodweb info you get when you open the menu for the very first time. I play a perkless huntress without addons.
I tell you that I don't even look at what perks people have in the endgame panel. I do not care, I legit have no clue what 45% of killer perks are called or what they do. I know the META stuff because that is the only stuff that can significantly impact how the fundamentals of the game work.
I appreciate a really good survivor who got his fundamentals down because those are the ones who are really dangerous and the ones from which you can learn the most about this game. They do not rely on that Lithe, that Lithe is that last bit of juice that he squeezes out of a chase that required far more than relying on perks.
When I see a survivor with weak fundamentals, the perks might help him a bit here and there, but his death is literally inevitable if no intervention happens. He has no chance outside of the very little RNG that the Map offers coupled with a lucky perk proc or a last ditch effort lucky execution of the "Finesse" perk.
Now, why am I saying all this. Who on earth will read this wall of text? I don't know, I hope the right person does, at least.
EDIT: I want to add to this that I not only appreciate the really good survivors, I also appreciate the lesser skilled survivors. More when I play Killer, admittedly, but in general. You can't win them all, but you can choose to give it your best shot, or give up… or throw a tantrum… it's really up to you how you will take it. I've had plenty of silly, non serious matches that were also fun.
Just to add to the point that my experience of the match variety is quite extensive. I can see that my point of view very likely requires a person to invest a good chunk of hours into the game with the clear intend to have fun as well as genuinely improve as a player. The average person probably just wants to finally hit that guy before he reaches that damn shack window, or feel spooky vibes while hiding behind a bush as meg while the killer barely misses you.
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Don't forget the "I have to slug because survivors keep purposely getting downed near the broken hook that their team mate died on". Hooks now respawn and yet gestures vaguely to all my slugged team mates
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I strongly disagree with every single thing you're saying, to me the intent is absolutely the same whether a Killer does it to Survivor or a Survivor does it to another Survivor, but I defend your right to say it. My sole point though is that if you're a Survivor, your own teammates grief you sometimes worse than Killers ever can. And I'm sorry, but being griefed by your own teammate feels worse than slugging, camping, or tunnelling ever does IMHO. It just does. I don't know how, I dunno if it's my mental state when I play Survivor, but I genuinely trust the Killer to be more sporting than most Survivors I meet in random rounds these days and that really is very sad. I guess I must be the only person who has ever experienced that, or has the real mental capacity to think that way. That, or I guess I'm just stupid enough to believe better of people trying to win at Killer than half the things Survivors have put me through as Survivor to ruin my games, solely because of the way I tend to play.
Because the truth is in all my years playing equal Killer to Survivor in DBD, Survivors have always been infinitely scummier and crueller to me than Killers have… and this is when I am playing Survivor. The amount of griefing other Survivors have done to me is absolutely insane, all because I didn't do what they wanted me to or didn't play the way I thought I should or they just did not like me or whatever. And every Killer Main I have spoken with in this community has genuinely been a lot nicer to me over all the years I have played than almost any Survivor Main I have talked to, basically ever. I have never had a Killer Main tell me to get cancer and die because I played Nea. I HAVE had Survivors tell me to get cancer and die for playing a meme build with my friends.
That has been my 100% true legitimate experience since day one of this game, so sorry - but to me, Survivors will always, always be much bigger griefers than Killers ever can be in this game, and infinitely nastier. They have never liked or accepted me, even as a Survivor.
I play in NA East. You may make of that what you will, perhaps Killers in the EU grief more than EU Survivors, but I sure haven't seen it where and when I play. I legitimately can count on both hands in the single digits how many times I have been slugged out recently this year versus how many times I was told to self-end by Survivors or had my rounds ruined by tantruming Survivors mad they didn't get to loop the Killer for 5 gens like all the big Youtube stars can. Maybe that just doesn't happen in NA, maybe my MMR is low enough Killers don't feel the need to do this, I dunno… but I just do not see it. It really, I swear to you, IS that rare for me.
Which begs the question, are the rest of the world's Killers genuinely okay?
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I agree. There's so much oneupsmanship even on these forums, everyone always seems to want to whine about how their side has the bigger problems.
Maybe all of these tactics are simply problematic and shouldn't be part of the game at all. Cap generator speeds, regression and progression. Have antislug, we already have enough anti tunnel and anti camp that serve the purpose of eliminating the most toxc kinds of it. And stop moving goalposts every time a solution is reached, both sides, because literally not every single annoying thing can be patched out of everything or you really would not have any amount of a game left.
At some point, you just have to accept all of this IS the game. Sadly, these tactics ARE the game. The worst of it being mitigated will still not remove the fact that these ARE parts of the game and at this point, intended by BHVR as counterplay.
And that sucks. :(
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Ohhhh OK I'm sorry for misreading my friend! :)
I don't always read tone well online sometimes, I wasn't sure if it was sarcasm or not. But yes, DBD is a bit more than tag. My point being that at some point both sides need to stop relying on perks and focus on just playing the fundamentals, which is very problematic if the fundamentals at this point include unfun strategies like pushing gens before anything else and slugging people. Like I would prefer to chase but sometimes that is not feasible, and sometimes I have to leave someone down. I would prefer to not push gens really hard and leave, but sometimes the Killer pushes so hard I feel I have no choice.
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This is your 69th post!
Nice. :)
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Killer 'True Form' just did this to us. We managed to get to 2 gens remaining while he was slugging the whole time. Loops, blinds, stuns, and repair as much as possible. 4k for slugging the whole game and refusing to hook. Dwight even forced him to pick by jumping in his arms from a window vault, killer just dropped and plugged. The most annoying play ever.
And we were playing regular, no event.
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lol I have to admit that I kinda felt bad the small number of times I've brought gen-rush builds. Commodius + both charge add-ons, Built To Last and some gen-rush perks... I always felt a little weird in endgame chat when people could see the build :/
Oddly, I don't mind seeing that as killer. I'm sure some of my tougher games are the result of a talented team running those things, but it doesn't feel so bad from the killer side. I literally feel worse as the player doing it than when I'm on the receiving end.
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I haven't played since the modifier started and my first match (and subsequent attempt at playing) was so miserable I just could not bring myself to keep playing. It seems killers knowing that anti-tunnel/slug builds are not guaranteed has just encouraged the most miserable play styles and I just cant do it personally.
I have been watching several streamer friends playing and the queues seem really long like others feel the same too. Honestly something needs to change as the game has become pretty miserable for solo queue survivor after years of the game being rough for killer.
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Ive noticed its getting so bad that the survivor que times are much longer than killers lol. Round 1:wallhacking tunnel nurse. Round 2: wallhacking tunnel freddy. Round 3: Teamslugging wesker. Round 4: proxy camping/tripple tunneling clown. Why bother trying for round 5 lol
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What region are you both playing in and what times? My queue time have been normal. No longer than usual.
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This is a problem on both sides. I've played Survivor against hardcore, tunnel-from-hook Killers who tried to slug for the 4K. I've also played Killer against Survivors who bring the strongest map offerings and then teabag at the gates because I was trying to lean into the weird useless perks I get and not be super sweaty. Alternatively, I played against some Survivors who more or less gave up because I got a hook at 5 gens and then said they were reporting me for 'holding the game hostage' when I was chasing the ones who were still trying to play the game instead of the ones who stood under the hook gesturing at me. This is all during the FIRST THREE DAYS of the event.
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I was one of the people who asked what was happing during the match. I wasn't doing it in a way to try and find a justification. I was just impressed you all got the gens done while a killer was playing like that.
While I agree that is almost no reason to slug all 4 players sometime a screenshot doesn't tell a whole story. I just had a game on Toba Landing and this survivor that had boil over kept running to the top of the spaceship. I tired to hook but the would wiggle free and run back up. After the fifth time of trying to reach a hook I downed the and let. That person could post a picture claiming "Another slugging killer!" I don't know maybe people still think what I did was uncalled for. I don't think so.
But I see the point too that when he see crappy behavior the instantly claim "Oh, you must have did something to deserve it" that's BS.
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You're basically saying it's fine if survivors do things that are unfun for killers, but it's miserable if killers do things that are unfun for survivors. That's a bad double standard.
Trying to win in a PvP game is not bad behavior.
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That’s not what was said at all.
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It’s 100% what is being said. It’s saying that killers should purposely make bad game decisions, for the sake of survivor fun….. but solo q survivors can pretty much do whatever they want, because nothing they can do is “as bad” as what killers can do.
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OCE mainly but I am not playing, watching streamer friends playing from 7pm - 3am approx
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Honestly?
This feels so bad to me, I don't like to run Commodious or any generator perks at ALL anymore. I just genuinely feel bad knowing that I am stressing another person out so much it makes them want to sweat. To me it's like when I bring more than one or two gen perks on Killer - needless, sweaty, unnecessary, and overly frustrating. And the more you deal with it as Killer (especially the weaker parts of the roster) the more frustrating it gets until apathy kicks in and you just go, "OK so what is the point if you'd rather have the round over in five seconds? Don't you want to play chase with me? No? OK… :( Here's your win, I'll just open the gate." It feels bad to be the power role and get your ass kicked just because people outperked you, not because you sucked at the game. It also feels bad as Survivor, too. But it REALLY feels bad as Killer because Killer is intended to be a power fantasy.
We really, REALLY do not always need all of this firepower. We really don't. Why do we all have this need to win so hard when we can just try to vibe? 9/10 times I can still get a Killer to just… vibe. Yes, it's less common than it was, but it still happens. At least… I still like to vibe as Killer if people are willing to calm down.
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IDK if this is the same for you as in NA, but around 7 PM to 3 AM is when it starts getting sweaty and weird for us, too. That's when more SWFs and very confident Killers come out, so I'm not surprised games are rougher for your friends at that time. I've also heard OCE is more competitive than NA, so that may also be part of it.
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Did you conveniently skip over this part: "they shouldn't be doing that, of course"?
And I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but we're NOT talking about a killer leaving you on the ground for 30 seconds to chase away someone else nearby. Or leaving someone slugged if they gave them a free down next to a hooked survivor. Or any other scenario where temporarily slugging a survivor makes sense. So enough with the whole "it's just the killer playing strategically" defense.
We're discussing killers bleeding out the WHOLE team and humping you on the ground for 4 minutes and other such nonsense. Which is absolutely NOT necessary under any circumstances in modern DbD and is literally ONLY done for the purposes of griefing/trolling. It's not even disputable. If you're going into games with an inflammatory username, leaving every survivor slugged with the nodding and WSing after a down.
You're. not. playing. strategically. You're griefing.
It's not about the killer winning, it's about the killer spending 4 minutes rubbing in the win instead of just letting us move on. Great, you've got us all downed. Now just hook us and let us move on and everyone is happy. There's no viable reason other than being a troll to spend 4 minutes after you've won walking between the slugged bodies of your opponents.
Unless you're someone who does that kind of thing, I don't see any reason to be defending it 🤷♂️
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This is all correct.
The problem is, too many people think those tactical slugs ARE griefing as you defined it here, because there isn't a formal definition of what "slugging" means. At least, that's the case if people DCing from rounds on the first down means anything.
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I think you meant to reply to the OP instead of me?
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Queue times mean the opposite of what it seems you think. The side with longer queue times is the side with more players waiting for members of the other side to play. In other words, longer survivor queues means there's not enough killers for the survivors, not the opposite.
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We were absolutely not discussing that. You literally said "It doesn’t matter why you’re doing it. Whether you’re doing it to grief or doing it because you feel it necessary, the match is still ruined for everyone else".
The discussion is whether or not a killer slugging 4 survivors, when it's 100% being done for the sake of winning the game, is acceptable or not.
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You need 4 survivors per game. So if there is a shortage of survivors then yes, other survivors can have affected queue times as they wait for the game to find them team mates.
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The discussion is whether or not a killer slugging 4 survivors, when it's 100% being done for the sake of winning the game, is acceptable or not.
Because there's absolutely no situation where this is necessary to win in 2025 DbD. Hooks respawn now. There's no need to bleed everyone out for 4 minutes from the onset of the match. People who go into every match to do this are trolls. Period.
And I'm not going to try and convince you any further. To be frank, I don't think I need to. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase (rightly) recognise this as malicious behaviour and it's clear the devs have cottoned on to it too (given they attempted to implement a solution on a previous PTB and are asking about it in feedback surveys). I'm 99.9% sure this behaviour is already on the chopping block and will be addressed in the near future. And when it does, I assure you the kill rates aren't going to change because no one is legitemately doing this as a strategy to win, and instad are just doing it to prolong already-won matches 👍
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I think a lot of the people defending slugging/tunneling keep skipping over that part. :\
No one has been talking about leaving someone on the ground for a few seconds, we've all been talking about crappy griefing behavior that upsets regular play. The game shouldn't have to be like this. Seems to continuously get overlooked throughout this whole discussion.
How people go about the win matters in any game involving other people. If I'm in a situation where someone actively prevents me from playing, why would I ever want to do that to someone else? Making others miserable is a sure fire way to make sure no one wants to play with you at all. It's just basic life experience. You can still play to win and respect others, some people just aren't grasping that.9 -
There absolutely are reasons to bleed survivors out on the ground…
When all 4 survivors are slugged, they will very often still try to wiggle if they are picked up. And hook respawning doesn't change the fact that there often are situations where all 4 survivors aren't in range of 4 separate hooks, especially if they were slugged because they all stayed in the same area.
If multiple survivors haven't been hooked yet, then placing any of them on a hook can actually make the game LONGER, because they might self-unhook and then try to pick up their teammates.
This is why I keep arguing that if a survivor has been slugged for 60 seconds, they should automatically get teleported to a 2v8 cage. It stops prolonged slugging, and ends the game quicker because the game would automatically end when all the remaining survivors are in cages.
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Yes, sorry. My mistake. I realized when I was typing and thought I changed it. Guess not.
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