General Discussions
General Discussions
Faster Bleedout vs Basekit Unbreakable For Stopping Slugging
I won't go into tons of detail setting up the issue with slugging, everyone knows what general conversation I'm talking about regardless of how much they agree on it being a problem. What I want to talk about is one of the alternative solutions to basekit Unbreakable that I see, and how I think it's not a good idea at all despite how popular it is.
The pitch is typically something like this: Once you've been on the ground for a set amount of time, you can either speed up your bleedout timer, or just instantly bleed out and die on the spot, to avoid being stuck on the ground for minutes when the killer's aggressively slugging.
My issue with that is that I firmly believe that any variation on this system would inevitably lead to more slugging, not less, and just being able to lose faster isn't going to make it all that much less annoying. That last part is why I think it'll lead to more slugging- this suggestion would tell killer players that if they want to aggressively slug their opponents, their opponent's answer to that… is to lose faster and give them more value.
This isn't necessarily a firm argument for a basekit Unbreakable system - though for the record I do think that's the safest direction to look - but rather an argument against a faster/instant bleedout. I think that allowing killers to win quicker via slugging is going to encourage slugging, since you get more out of it if your opponents just get bored of being left there and die quicker.
Comments
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I would just do baskit unbreakable and have the perk do something else.
You should be interacting with the hooks, thats why the devs put them there.Slugging should be a short term thing, not disabling several minutes for multiple people in a match.
Faster bleedouts would just make slugging MORE prevalent. We dont need that.21 -
You're completely right. Faster bleedout would just turn slugging into an even more consistent, more desirable win con. For precisely this reason, I've always been amazed that it's such a highly-requested option by survivors. As easy as it is to criticize BHVR for how they do and don't balance the game, and as much as they deserve it, things like this do remind you that the community as a whole is also really terrible at understanding/fixing issues with the game.
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How would basekit unbreakable effect downs near pallets (which they often are). The result would be pick up and get stunned by pallet save or leave slugged which they get themselves up. Same thing with flashlight saves or flashbanhs. Or when people bring petrified oak with several anti hooking perks. Puts the killer in a lose lose situation. True it would stop slugging... And the entire killer player base from playing the game.
The reason the timer for being slugged is so long is to give people time to crawl to a better location for a safe heal but people rarely do that. They just afk or DC which is probably another reason so many killers slug.
Also just because the hooks are there doesn't mean people should be interacting with them. Same argument could be said for slugging, the bleed out is a mechanic so killers should be doing it. Or killers like Myers that can Mori whole teams without a single hook. Just saying there are many things that the Devs put in the game but it doesn't necessarily mean killer or survivor SHOULD be interacting with them. They are there as an option, one of many options.
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faster bleed out = promotes slugging and go next
Some sort of recovery = discourages slugging and encourages return to normal play.
This is the point I raise every time someone suggests bleed out as a solution to slugging.
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I've made the argument before that it would be a bad idea to make changes that would reward the very play styles that you are trying to discourage. Allowing Survivors to bleed out quickly is exactly what that does; reward Killers for slugging the entire team with an even quicker victory. If your only defense as a Survivor is to lose quicker, that's not a very good solution.
I'm not 100% sold on base-kit unbreakable when all 4 Survivors are still in the game, though. After all, it's a high risk, high reward strategy that can still backfire, even against a Solo Q team. But I also think it's unrealistic or unfair to expect at least 1 player in Solo Q to potentially waste a perk slot on UB or Soul Guard to combat a strategy that more often than not Solo Q disproportionately suffers against.
I'm not sure there is an ideal solution to the kind of hardcore slugging that feels like a cheesy short cut to a win, especially one that allows Killers to ignore the 3 hook states that are a core fundamental part of the game's design. But I hope BHVR can come up with something that feels fair to both sides, which is what I think they've mostly achieved with base-kit BT and the AFC system. Survivor perks should offer an optional extra layer of defense against certain Killer strategies, but they should never begin to feel necessary just to play the game you queued up for. That always feels bad.
I'd rather BHVR didn't have to add something to deal with 4 man slugging, but if they do add some form of base-kit UB, it will be because we've gotten to the point that it's actually become a necessary evil.
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Could just have it where you can only baskit unbreakable when there is more than 1 person down.
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The bleed out mechanic is not there to let killers win the game, a killer's main objective is to sacrifice survivors to the entity. Bleeding out isn't a legitimate way to kill or sacrifice a survivor, and the game docks a killer when they do it.
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Exactly. It’s there to make sure matches don’t go on forever just like the hatch and the EGC is. If killers are slugging 3 people and bleeding them out to win that to me is no different to me than when three survivors were escaping early through the hatch before it was nerfed.
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They tried Basekit Unbreakable before and it was busted
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That PTB had a lot of issues, it wasn't just that a basekit Unbreakable was inherently busted. The far bigger problem on that PTB was that they also buffed the hell out of Unbreakable itself, and iirc a few other recovery speed tools.
It's absolutely possible to iterate on that concept and fix what was busted about it, the situation was far from unsalvageable.
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What is needed is hooking to be more enticing. We're at a point in the game where getting hooked can actually benefit the survivors more than killer because of base kit additions and killers hook perks getting nerfed.
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Just spitballing but increase bleed out to a ridiculous time, and then put it to where if everyone is down for x amount of time like 5 minutes or something everyone gets up. They’ll have to hook then or just have the worlds longest games and you’ll have ridiculous times for matches that kind of proves intentional griefing and just ban them.
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It wasn't? It got canned because Huntress and Nurse players among other killers were slugging to get the win, it had nothing to do with unbreakable basekit, it took LONGER to get up.
It also made perks like tenacity much more appealing.2 -
There is plenty enough
People just have hard copium thinking the majority of their matches are against coordinated survivors(the only real counter to slugging).
The fact and reason slugging is so successful is because that is not the case.
I dont do this stupid crap and win easily over 70% of my matches(i am under selling myself a lot here its probably 90%+). Legion I cant even remember the last time I 2/2, much less lost. Plague had a recent draw.
Killer players just need to get good because thats all it takes to win the majority of your matches. Not be terrible.9 -
It's not some easy mode button. You slug and you ignore the current meta from survivor being unhook perks. Thats what I thought being good is, to adapt which slugging ignores unhook perks. Even in solo if they are prepared for it other than the obvious being knockout it can still come down to the wire.
And despite all this hooking keeps getting worse and worse meaning more incentive to slug.2 -
I know this isn't really the point of the thread but I do have to ask - what do you mean by hooking getting worse and worse? What's even changed about the basic value from hooking recently?
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Base kit additions and nerfing the hook perks. Mainly Pop and pain res. 30% was worth it on lower tiers but 20% isnt. Pain res all though instant regression removing the extra 20%… Its a multitude of things. Mainly me and a lot of people seeing upwards of 12 unhook perks that you can just ignore by slugging.
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Its an easy mode button.
It was made worse by the idiot decision for last survivor mori as well.
You saying you are ignoring survivor perks to do this basically tells me you cant play against survivors with perks.Or any control of their own either.
They have to be completely disabled and on the ground to succeed? This is where you are at skill wise?
Pain res and pop are still the most common used perks.
With BBQ the third.
ALL of them hook perks.
With pain res being basically TWICE PICKED than any other killer perk.
All the forum whiney posts saying as well that you need to run gen regression too would be contradictory to saying hooking isnt worth it.
People saying there is little reason to hook or a detriment are just horrific at the killer role and need to git good, or just not be bad you dont even need to be good at killer. Just not bad.13 -
What basekit additions, though? The only basekit additions we've gotten even semi recently are, what, the extra time on the hook? That's not something you're even gonna notice nine times out of ten, and the tenth time has a good chance of being in your favour as killer.
I can understand hook perks being nerfed as a thing that makes hooks weaker in sort of a holistic sense, but realistically, what you get out of hooks hasn't actually changed if you aren't specifically running Pop. Pain Res hasn't been changed in a while and non-hook related regression perks haven't changed, so… it's just Pop, and if you aren't looking at perks at all, hooks are just as strong as they've ever been.
For unhook perks, I mean, which ones do you actually have to worry about as killer if you aren't tunnelling? Dead Hard, Reassurance, We'll Make It… that's kinda it, right?
I just don't see hooks being weaker now than they've been in the past, personally. Nothing's actually changed about the value of hooks.
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Its just not. Also knight light is still a third party source that documents a MINORITY of stats but if you're so adamant… 4 out of the 10 perks in the top 10 used are directly linked to hooking. Only TWO of them being regression and the other is aura reading/gen stall. You definitely see surge climbing because its good and doesnt need the song and dance of go through 3 health state chases for the regression because someone runs across the map with their OTR and if i down them they have DS dead hard.
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It doesnt have to be recent. Its over the course of multiple years. They just all added up to this point where people realize its better. Which personally I foresaw this ever since they buffed the haste on the basekit BT which the endurance is fine the haste is just overkill.
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Faster bleed out in ADDITION to incentivizing killers to hook again.
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Nightlight has been shown, 4 times now, to be 1:1 from the developers released stats. Enough with the cope on it "being 3rd party"
OTR DS DH?
So your problem is with perks that only activate after a hook?
So….again do you only want to play against survivors that are perkless? Im just trying to understand your reasoning for slugging.
You say you avoid the "survivor meta".First down you dont have to worry about any of that.
So you just dont want to hook… at all?
Again, I put that up there in the first post. The hooks are in the game for a reason, survivors have health states for a reason.
Not to bypass them.
Which would be…. easy mode if you could.
And DS only happens if you tunnel. So you slug ….. and tunnel? How would that work?
Your posts are coming off as being very very…. VERY, odd at playing killer as a role.8 -
That really just shifts my question of what got worse to a little further back. Outside of niche mechanics that reign in specific unbalanced playstyles, like the AFC mechanic and the basekit BT… nothing's changed. Hooks are as they've always been.
I just don't see what you have to deal with that's added up over the years, that's my main hangup here. It's basically been the same general shape of stuff you might have to deal with - you might have to deal with a flashlight or pallet save, you might have to deal with anti tunnel used aggressively - and all that's changed is which tools are being used for it.
I can't even really say the modern tools are stronger considering you can't weaponise DS anymore, so post-unhook aggression is inherently weaker. Maybe Flashbang is stronger than flashlights? But even then, hardly something that'd actually weaken hooks overall.
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I want to play a game where 3 second chances arent thrown into my face when im not even tunneling. The hooks are there for you to use at YOUR discretion not because "its there so use it". Just because the first down doesnt have meta doesnt mean it wont come back after they get unhooked. Especially when the game has been watered down so much where if 2-3 gens aren't popping around first chase… the survivors did something wrong. And having 4 survivors at 2-3 gens should be an incredibly easy match. With slugging you're constantly pressuring because you arent wasting time to walk to a hook giving the survivors 7-15 seconds extra each to work on a gen.
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There is a third and better option: After a reasonable time in the floor you are given the option to be automatically sent to a hook by pressing a button.
This would put an end to the toxic bleeding out all the survivors, which is the only slugging case that really deserves to be taken care of.
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Wouldn't that basically bring the same result as a faster bleedout, though?
If you're the killer and you want to aggressively slug, this solution would tell you that the only answer survivors have is to reward you with a hook. I don't see that making aggressive slugging any less common, personally.
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STB, +20 seconds on hook per survivor and anti face camp. Stack those upon the 2nd chances, STB or reassurance then hooking just benefits the survivors more if you want to win.
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I'm not sure I see how?
Shoulder the Burden only really has one very specific scenario in which it's even useful outside of the killer trying to tunnel, and because of the Exposed effect it can even backfire pretty badly.
The extra ten seconds per hook stages realistically aren't going to matter unless you're trying to force someone to progress hook stages without being unhooked, which was already kind of a losing proposition most of the time anyway. If survivors leave their teammates on the hook for longer, that's more time for you to generate pressure, which is to your benefit and not theirs.
The anti face camp system barely works for what it's supposed to do, you definitely don't have to worry about this mechanic unless you're literally trying to face camp.
None of these things actually benefit the survivors unless you play into them. Don't stick by the hook and don't concentrate all your attention on the guy who just got unhooked, that's already how you'd play killer more effectively. The fact that it thwarts these supposed second chance perks is a bonus.
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A single lithe or sprint burst negates the exposed from STB. The anti face camp works a bit too well for what its meant to do because face camping isn't sitting 20 meters from hook. The ten extra seconds per hook stage allows for even more greed while giving the survivors more time to unhook even when you try to punish them for waiting so long to unhook. Oh yeah hook grabs got removed so trading against most killers is just free.
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Apparentely in this guys matches, which are mostly soloQ.
They are dealing with reassurance, DS, DH, OTR, and Shoulder.
All being used, much less used at all, perfectly.
And this is why they say tunneling is required.
Obviously they are mad that one game they made a misplay of tunneling one survivor that had DS/DH and now they are trying to use that as EVERY survivor they encounter has this.
When in reality it was a single survivor that got them with this.
Lets just ignore the fact that slugging doesnt require perks, at all to do. But its counter requires everything in the other direction, including coordination.
Bad faith arguments.10 -
The bar for the AFC builds so slowly if you're on the edge of the 16 metres, though, this is really a non issue. You're not gonna be on the edge of it for all that long anyway unless you're trying to camp someone to second stage/death, so even that's a non issue if it weren't incredibly slow.
As for greeding gens, consider the following: What are you doing while they're greeding gens? The answer should be "chasing someone", right? So what the survivors are giving you here is the opportunity to start snowballing a win if you can get that down before they can finish the generator and run over to get the save. Unless the next down happens after the save, you're the one with the advantage to press, not the survivors.
These things are a non-issue unless you're actively doing the specific things they're meant to punish. They don't make hooks weaker for their main purposes.
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Slugging does not counter comms. It counteres unhook perks yes but there's plenty of anti slug perks which also decimate slugging. It's called changing playstyles according to what you notice is a majority of your matches.
Let me ask you this. If you noticed a majority of your matches contained at least 8 unhook perks or perks that synergize with unhook perks would you not just slap on a build that doesn't rely on hooks for value?0 -
Survivors can have basekit Unbreakable if killers get basekit NOED. I mean, it’s only fair.
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Imma say the same thing i said in a similar forum, just make one survivor out of all 4 survivors being slugged, able to "get up" like in the finisher mori ptb. This machanic would only work when all 4 are alive since if you're being slugged with 3 people alive, you're likely gonna die anyways or its end game
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What clear basekit issue would basekit NOED be solving, though?
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Well I think limiting it to those two options is overly limiting.
First for me would be changing some killer perks, notably knockout. Slugging could still be a part of the game, but not an entire build you could make.
Then I would make faster bleedout, with conditions. Mainly there being multiple dead or also downed survivors, This is to speed up slugging for the 4k.
Then I'd probably increase the basekit crawl speed, maybe even make it so you could crawl and recover to a limited degree. That's a less necessary thing to look at.
If after all of that we still had issues, we could talk about more radical changes.
Balance is an important discussion.
A more important discussion is having an enjoyable game. I don't mind losing, its part of games, but I don't want to feel like I'm watching paint dry as a video game.
Not that I think its a tradeoff, but hypothetically if it was, I would gladly accept a higher kill rate if it would significantly reduce how boring DbD is at points.
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Genrushing SWFs which I encounter just as often as survivors encounter slugging killers.
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For the record, while I personally do support (a very carefully implemented) basekit Unbreakable, this thread is more to point out that a faster bleedout timer in specific would have the opposite effect of what people would presumably want. It's not really a counter because the killer still wins, and it'd encourage more slugging instead of deterring it.
There are of course other avenues to explore, overall.
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Wouldn't just nerfing toolboxes be a much easier and less dramatic way of taking care of those builds?
You could go another step and adjust survivor spawns so they all spawn together by default, if you wanted. That's a more direct response to the problem there that won't have any nasty collateral damage.
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No I’m just gonna go with the same “give one side one of their strongest second chance perks basekit” solution survivors keep demanding.
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This thread isn't actually about how basekit Unbreakable is the only solution, to be clear. I do think it's the safest and least likely to backfire if it's done properly, but it's really not the only thing to look at.
This thread is about how a faster bleedout timer specifically both won't solve the problem and stands a good chance of making it worse. Fittingly, basekit NOED is the same thing: It doesn't stop toolbox squads at all, and it'd have too much collateral damage.
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Sure, but faster bleedout doesn't lead to anything fun or enjoyable, it just ends a miserable game/situation faster. If you're looking to make a more enjoyable game, you'd want to do something that discourages unfun situations in the first place, and the OP is correctly pointing out that a faster bleedout does the opposite.
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True but just adding a perk as basekit in general to band-aid fix a core issue is really becoming tiresome to see from BHVR.
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So the Unbreakable in the PTB wasn't busted but just had to do with Huntress and Nurse players slugging? This makes sense to you? Slugging for the 4K is already a thing in the base game so where in the PTB was this not busted? Tenacity being more prevalent would actually make the game more fun since you would stop seeing the same perks over and over again.
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I play about 65/35 in favor of survivor…only meta perk I run is adrenaline. I do fine. Skill issue. Next.
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Survivor queues are already getting long. Base kit Unbreakable isn't going to make that any better. It's a bad idea, point blank period. Any other opinion is wrong and it's not up for debate. This is just copium trying to get another free 2nd chance to make easy mode even easier.
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I very much agree. The only way to really combat slugging is to give survivors more and powerful tools against it. This however would be heavily abusable. There are situations where you simply have to slug (e.g. imminent pallet / flashlight save, bodyblocking with DS) and a base kit Unbreakable mechanic would punish killers for that.
If we really want to remove slugging from the game, then we'll need base kit Unbreakable and the removal of pick up saves. This is far from ideal.
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"Intended gameplay is to use hooks" ; so why arent survivors picking up the slugs? Thats "intended gameplay" too. Just pick up the downed survivor. If you can spare the time to unhook you got the same time to help up.
Maybe devs should look into just instant sacrificing all survivors if all survivors are incapacitated beyond recovery again
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Umm, I think you responded to the wrong person. Neither me nor the person I was responding to said anything about basekit unbreakable.
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