General Discussions

General Discussions

Faster Bleedout vs Basekit Unbreakable For Stopping Slugging

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  • Member Posts: 725

    True the killer does get more BP for hooking but if the killer is struggling to get hooks then bleeding 1 person out and hooking the rest could be the way to go. I play tombstone Myers alot and the BP rewards are often pretty bad because there's minimal hooks, minimal chases due to stalking, and people don't last long. bleeding people out with tombstone Myers makes very little difference to BP, still better to bleed them out than to not get the 4k

  • Member Posts: 1,055

    Yeah, I agree. Faster Bleedout combined with selfsacrifice, while it would helps to adress slugging for the 4k scenario, it would probably encourage killers to slug more overall. On the other hand a basekit unbreakable might be too abusable in certain situations, when killer players are required to tactical slug.
    I personally think what is necessary is a mechanic that is not influenced by perks too much. And that would be a timer which starts as soon as the survivor has maximal recovered. When the timer is up they can either pick themselves up or sacrifize themselves.
    This would make slugging limited, but still tactical usable for killers, open survivors a way out in dragged out slugging for the 4k scenarios. Of course such a suggestion is quicker said than actually done. Hitting the right spot for the timer would be hard.

    Honestly, I don't share the argument too much, that killers, who go in with a slug strategy do it, because hooks aren't that much rewarding. But even though, if it's the case, then I don't think that making hooks more rewarding would make people slug less. As soon as people get used to a game strategy and it's effectiveness they have no reason to change it. I remember, when the "No heal" meta came up. After nerfing healing, survivors started to use a strategy which would have worked well before that nerf.
    And it only became less popular, after the strategy became less efficient, not because other strategies became more reliable.

  • Member Posts: 9,436
    edited February 12

    But slugging is normal play.

    Killers routinely slug for pressure and survivors have as many basekit and perk counters to slugging as they do for hooks.

    The problem isn't slugging as a function, it's obnoxiously refusing to hook, it's extreme slugging for the 4K, it's bleeding out in spite. These are mechanically outliers, they're abuse of the system.

    Basekit Unbreakable punishes all forms of slugging, as it halves all the pressure it generates by no longer requiring survivor coordination. Why stop repairing the gen to help your teammate when they can just pick themselves up in a few seconds?

    However conditional basekit Unbreakable, that ONLY activates when ALL survivors are in the dying state or hooked, would mean that it only comes into play in those extreme outliers where slugging is being abused to troll or prolong the game to secure a guaranteed 4K.

    Basically; if no survivors are standing, i.e. all survivors are either dead, hooked or dying, THEN, survivors gain the ability to pick themselves up, and the moment one of them does, it's deactivated again.

    This would turn any potential 4K slug scenarios into a fruitless game of whack-a-mole that the killer will eventually lose unless they commit to a hook.

    Something like this already works in 2v8, where survivors on death hook gained basekit Unbreakable. It meant that when down to the last 3 survivors, to prevent hatch spawns, if one or more are on death hook it's impossible to keep all 3 down and stay on top of them indefinitely.

  • Member Posts: 647
    edited February 12

    OR (And just hear me out here).

    We could make hooking WORTH something again, and maybe killers would start doing it again.

    Survivors have no one to blame but themselves for the current meta. Whining about Pain Resonance, Pop Goes the Weasel, Grim Embrace, and Dead Man's Switch cause all those perks were nerfed into the ground. The result is the hassle of getting to a hook (let alone a scourge hook) when survivors can still flashlight save, flashbang save, body block, or sabotage hooks (seriously, make scourge hooks unable to be sabotaged at least) is essentially a negative expected value (-EV, a poker term) for the killer.

    Also, so many second chance perks now actually require hooking, such as dead hard and of course DS has required it for years. Not to mention unhooked survivors with base kit borrowed time often use it offensively to body block killers.

    The result is hooking has become pointless for killers in terms of pressure and slowdown. Slugging provides more of both.

    That said, I think the amount of killers who are slugging and leaving to bleed out intentionally is actually pretty low as there's no benefit outside of spite. In most games I will hook the first downed survivor and slug everyone else until I've hooked that survivor three times (or everyone else does end up downed) then I will hook the rest as soon as possible.

    You want slugging to end? All you have to do is MHGA (Make Hooking Great Again)

  • Member Posts: 135

    Killers do it because it's optimal, slugging wastes Survs time since going for hooks is a detriment and hook spreading is severely punished in SWF games. Killers also do it because it's the most toxic thing to do as it removes almost all gameplay and they are all tilted from their unpleasant matches with SWF groups.

    In the current game, any nerf to slugging would benefit SWF immensely and any buff to hooks will destroy SoloQ even more. The issue always starts and ends with the balance around SWF being completely out of whack and ruining the rest of the game, preventing real solutions for the games many problems.

  • Member Posts: 2,280

    we're genuinely curious, how much of the things of the things you repeatedly spout do you actually believe?

  • Member Posts: 192
    edited February 12

    No offense, but that video basically confirms that slugging helps avoid survivors’ perks and being troubled by the mechanics of the game.

    Post edited by joeyspeehole on
  • Member Posts: 192
    edited February 12

    What they are saying is when you slug chase, slug chase, slug chase it’s saving you a lot of time as it relates to occupying the survivors and completing your tasks. It’s a very easy way to playing the game.

  • Member Posts: 515

    Killers still wont hook, theyre basically saving the 15-20 seconds it takes to pick up and carry to hook.

  • Member Posts: 515

    If Basekit Unbreakable is implemented it should be a once per game thing, and it should be on a long timer, like at least 50-60 seconds and also killers should get something in return, a basekit corrupt and a toolbox nerf would be fine by me.

  • Member Posts: 7

    I have a short question.

    If slugging is in every game like some people say, why wouldn´t you take unbreakable, exponantional or we gonna live forever, since DS, StB or DH are useless?

    Don´t get me wrong but wouldn´t that be the next step in meta?

    Killer won´t hook so why bring anti tunnel? Maybe we need to adept, instead of asking for basekit changes so we can run the same build over and over again?

  • Member Posts: 506
    edited February 12

    The title alone alredy prettymuch states that if you bleedout faster, killers will want to slug you even more than they alredy do because even easier and now faster to """"win"""".

  • Member Posts: 2,238

    Getting something in return is bad game design. Like I'm a survivor main and I'd be fine with nerfing or reworking toolboxes straight up.

    Yes and no.

    The problem with 'meta' discussions is that if there was a clear one, then yes, it could be countered. Historically, killers have had spreading hooks, spreading pressure, snowballing, tunneling, camping, 3 genning, and slugging as broad overall strategies. If all 4 survivors guess right ahead of time then the killer will probably be in a lot of trouble.

    But DbD is a bad game when it becomes a guessing game in the lobby. Not to mention soloq's difficulty in coordinating a strategy.

    DbD is an even worse game when you need to bring a perk to counter a strategy. Even if you don't bring the right perks, there are strategies to counter tunneling. Old 3 genning? Did anyone bring potential energy? No? Well, 40 minute game here we come.

    Slugging is in the position of old 3 genning. Not only do survivors need to win the guessing game, if they don't, its an incredibly boring game.

  • Member Posts: 7

    So you say…

    Survivor bring a complete Anti Tunnel Build with DH DS StB and the Killer has to play into it? Because the other side don´t want a guessing game? (2 out of 16 perks could be Exponentional and don´t need 4 Anti Tunnel perks on all Survivor)

    I am confused.

    Hasn´t it been always like this. Killers go full Slow down, Survivors go Gen rush.

    Killers bring Aura Build, Survivor go Anti Aura.

    Killers go Tunnel and Survivor brings Anti Tunnel.

    Now it seems like everyone is saying all games are full of Slugging which brings to points.

    Either go Anti Slug because Anti Tunnel won´t happen that much or it´s a straight lie that every game is a full slug fest.

  • Member Posts: 3,968
    edited February 12

    My suggestion to combat slugging has for a while now been some variant of, when in the dying state:

    • Hold the rush button for 5s to enter Desperation.
    • Bleedout increased by 50% (1.5 c/s or 240s→ 160s to bleed out)
    • Grunts of Pain are 50% louder
    • Crawl Speed increased by 75%
    • Desperation ends after releasing the rush button and remaining still for 5s.

    I believe the biggest problem when a killer is slugging is the killer can keep easy tabs on the survivors they've slugged cause they are so slow. You can't get apart or move anywhere really while slugged. This means the slugged survivor can't get anywhere safer to be saved, and if you/a survivor get caught trying to resolve the slug, you double the killers pressure and can't split up to then try and break the slug chain.

    This Desperation suggestion included a slight increase to bleedout speed, for which I have for 3 reasons:

    First it's thematically satisfying. If you're injured yet desperately crawling away, you're disregarding your injuries to go faster.

    Second it gives a meaningful choice with appropriate trade offs of whether you want to use it or not, since you do bleed out faster and can be found easier. This gives slugged players some actual agency of trying to get away from hot spots and key objectives to somewhere where their teammates can potential save them.

    Third in a hopeless situation it gives a small means of mitigating slugging for the 4k and full team slugging, without heavy handedly going NOPE! BAD KILLER! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO WIN! Because like it of not, a successful 4 man slug is a victory for the killer, and trying to remove that completely doesn't just hit aggregious startegies, but also affects opportunistic slugging when Survivors are being aggressive too.

    So yes I agree a lazily implemented "super fast bleedout" or "give up" mechanism is dreadful, an increased bleedout time built into a more reasonable mechanic has a place.

    Basekit Unbreakable is too much of game changing effect to manage... every suggestion I've ever read always has some outlier, some situation where it breaks the game and can create scenarios where the killers hands are tied and they can't pick up.

    Instead of acknowledging that fault, players tend to just wave it off as not important, or try and shoe horn in some really ugly additional rules/conditions to combat it.

    The Crawl Speed route is a much more innocuous change that isn't gonna suddenly completely rewire and break the game.

  • Member Posts: 2,238
    edited February 12

    straight lie that every game is a full slug fest.

    Who is saying every game? I'm sure someone has in this thread, but usually people are saying its becoming a more common tactic. If one out of five games is a slugging killer, that's rare enough that its hard to justify a build to counter, common enough to ruin the game.

  • Member Posts: 7

    Have you been the last days online in this forum?

    If the Thread isn´t 2v8 related its most likely a slug theme.

    So it´s not the survivors fault if they bring Anti Tunnel vs a Slug build

    But it´s killers fault if they bring Totems/Aura/Hook builds vs Anti Totem, Aura or Sabo builds?

    I have a honest question.

    What do we even want?

    A stale game where everything is predictable, say same Loops on every map, same playstyle every game, same perks what so ever or do we like dbd cause its not predictable?

  • Member Posts: 2,102

    Camping, tunneling, and slugging are all base kit for killers. They're always available, for every build, killer, kit, perk loadout. Every game.

    The "counter" to these, which doesn't stop them, and at best slows them down slightly, is to completely determine your survivor build and bring unbreakable, DS, OTR, and reassurance. Every game. So zero build variety for survivors, otherwise you have to listen to "BuT yOu HaVe PeRkS fOr ThAt!"

    And, specifically for slugging, there is literally nothing base kit that deals with it that isn't also slowdown in the killers favor.

    Anti Totem, Aura or Sabo builds

    Are not base kit. The survivor is building specifically for these, and deliberately sacrificing the previous set of perks to do so.

    Though I'm not sure what "anti totem" is supposed to mean, since cleansing is the only counter. Cleansing is a slowdown time sink that hexes are designed for.

  • Member Posts: 2,280

    What we read (from the first sentence) is that they believe it's optimal because hooking is somehow detrimental. What we read (from the second sentence) is that killers do it to be toxic. What we read (from the rest) is ranting about SWFs (and this was ignoring the bits about SWFs thrown into the first 2 sentences).

  • Member Posts: 647

    If it was such a minor nerf then why was it needed in the first place? Thanks for making the point for me.

    "Grim and Pain Res are still some of the strongest killer perks in the game"

    Nope, that would be knockout and Mindbreaker now. Because the perks you mentioned have been nerfed so heavily and hooking is a time consuming gamble with the possibility of no payoff, and don't even get me started on terrible scourge hook placement. First pain res was reduced to 4 charges max, then it's once per survivor, now it's down from 25 to 20%. Again, survivors did this to themselves with incessant whining about slowdown.

    "What if you never used that perk, or any hook-related slowdown perks? Hooking's been pretty good for you in that regard this whole time, and nothing's changed there."

    Hooking has not only been nerfed for killers, it's been BUFFED for survivors.

    Dead Hard, Deliverance, DS, not to mention the increased timer on hook states means less pressure on survivors to be altruistic, increasing further generator rush. Of course even if you get someone on death hook someone can bring shoulder the burden and negate the danger.

    Anti-tunnel perks can be used offensively, meaning not only is hooking worse for killers, it's downright BENEFICIAL for survivors to get hooked at least once.

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    I mean, it wasn't needed. I said as much when it happened, it was an unnecessary change that has basically zero impact on the perk. I'm not proving your point at all, I'm bolstering mine, lol.

    When you say hooking has "not only been nerfed for killers, it's been buffed for survivors", don't you mean just that it's been buffed for survviors? None of those things are things that makes hooking weaker, they're either just nice buffs for the survivor (Dead Hard, Deliverance), anti-tunnel (DS, Shoulder the Burden), or anti-camp (increased hook timer).

    I'm not even saying those things are weak in their intended uses, they just don't affect the core strength of hooks. The only thing that would is Deliverance, but that's been in the game for years and hasn't been substantially changed in a long time- I think the last time it even got indirect changes was the basekit BT making safe unhooks more reliable? That was three years ago now, almost.

    Even with the increased timer, the thing you're describing is opportunity for the killer. If they're stuck on gens, go get more pressure by getting another down. If you can do that - and of course it's an if, this is a game, victory isn't guaranteed - then you have the advantage, not the survivors.

    Every time someone tries to talk about hooks being weaker, they never even acknowledge what it is hooks give you, it's always conversations about perks or basekit mechanics like the AFC system/increased hook timers.

  • Member Posts: 5,787

    I think the hatred from slugging comes less from its efficiency and more from the loss of agency for a long period of time, even the ability to give up, a fast bleedout might encourage a tad bit more slugging only for the fact that people who slug don't feel as bad but it would certainly feel better to know theres a faster out when it happens because they at least have a button to press and it doesn't jeopardize balance

  • Member Posts: 647

    The point was each of those incremental nerfs continued to slowly and surely eat away the edge of hooking over slugging, and now we've reached the axis point where slugging is showing to be the smarter, more efficient play mathematically. So while they don't seem to a major problem individual, their cumulative affect has finally become significantly noticeable.

    No, hooking was nerfed for killers outside of even the perks. The 20 second increase on hook states for example. And other perks have enabled pickup saves to be even easier such as Background player. Flashlights can still be avoided with looking at walls but Background Player + Flashbang enables survivors to run up, drop a flashbang in the killer model, making it unavoidable, in addition to all the other anti-hook plays survivors have at their disposal.

    Again, each of these individual changes did not shift the meta, it's that their cumulative effect has now shifted the meta.

    Also your scenario doesn't work. One hook and chasing one survivor is only two engage and not doing generators. Meanwhile one slugged and one in chase requires another survivor to first locate the downed survivor, then get them up, which with knockout becomes more difficult, thus engaging three survivors for longer than hooking.

    People have already done the math in the thread already, so I won't belabor the point.

    Honestly I don't think my complaint is much lack of rewards for hooking, it's that those rewards can be short-circuited so easy by just one other survivor utilizing a flashlight, flashbang, sabotage, or body block. If I was able to do the 2v8 thing and put survivors on hooks instantly I think you'd find most killers would accept that.

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    As I just laid out, the 20 second increase on hook states at worst gives you an opportunity to generate more value, it's not just a negative scenario for you. This is also if survivors even choose to take that risk, which most won't- it just doesn't feature in most matches at all.

    If you have one on hook and one in chase, that does occupy three survivors? Someone has to come off generators to save the person on hook, too, that's not unique to slugging. Leaving someone on the ground and hooking that person is the same in the sense that three survivors are occupied, but hooking is better because it directly progresses your objective faster, it fully immobilises someone instead of just slowing them down a lot, and it puts a sharper time pressure on survivors to come rescue.

    As for hook denial strategies like flashlights and the like, we're on firmer ground because there is one issue there… but we're also downgraded "hooks aren't worth it" to "one specific perk has one specific interaction that is unfair". Those are extremely different situations. Actually getting the hook gives as much value by default as it ever has, it's just slightly harder in an unfair way in one specific scenario.

    The most reasonable conclusion to draw there is "When we address aggressive slugging, also make sure to fix the collision issue with pickups".

  • Member Posts: 647

    How does giving survivors an extra 20 seconds to finish generators give the KILLER value exactly?

    Also, no, hooked survivors are easily located thanks to the notification upon hook (also if one survivor is running kindred they are seen at all times including killer aura when close to hook). There is no searching for them as opposed to a slugged survivor with knockout, THAT'S where the time difference come in. Also thanks to the longer hook states survivors can unhook another survivor at their leisure, usually after they complete a generator, while slugged survivors have to be located quicker since bleed out meter does not reset upon being picked up.

    "Hooking directly progresses your objective faster". No it doesn't, my objective is not to get 12 hooks, it's to get kills, and I can accomplish that through a variety of means including Mori, 3 hook states, or bleed out.

    "it fully immobilizes someone instead of just slowing them down a lot" Again the value in slugging is not the slug itself, it's forcing them to be searched for via knockout.

    "puts a sharper time pressure on survivors to come rescue" again no it doesn't, bleed out meter doesn't reset, meaning it's one timer cumulative that has to tick down, as opposed to two individual hook states with their own separate timers.

    "As for hook denial strategies like flashlights and the like, we're on firmer ground because there is one issue there… but we're also downgraded "hooks aren't worth it" to "one specific perk has one specific interaction that is unfair". Those are extremelydifferent situations. Actually getting the hook gives as much value by default as it ever has, it's just slightly harder in an unfair way in one specific scenario."

    Hooks still aren't worth it as the nerfs to slowdown perks and the continued length of hook states gives survivors more leniency on when to unhook while not providing enough slowdown to counter the pressure from slugging with knockout. No we are still not in agreement here, but I appreciate you acknowledging the Collison issue.

    We're going to be at an impasse here, but the truth of the matter is killers didn't wake up one day deciding to slug, and slugging results in fewer bloodpoints and also higher risk because if the strat doesn't work. Clearly there had to be a significant shift over time that cause a bunch of killers who WERE using hook perks up until recently to suddenly all switch en masse.

  • Member Posts: 135

    Who's we? Your alt accounts?

    So then why do Killers slug? Why does that P100 Blight slug at 5 gens or why does the p100 Nurse slug at 5 gens? In fact, why is every Killer in DBD constantly slugging…. or camping/tunneling if they even do hook? Why in comp DBD, is the Killer pretty much required to tunnel out one player in a nerfed SWF?

    The game balance will always be ######### if SWF are not brought back down to earth where the rest of Survs play, which is why this game has gotten more unpleasant as time has gone on. You're all aware of that though, you just ignore it because you want your current power role playing with friends, I'm not going to be bullied by people like you for simply stating reality.

  • Member Posts: 321

    I agree, swfs need to be nerfed and so do gen speeds. But at the same time as these changes, anti slug and tunnel machanics need to be implemented so all boring playstyles on both sides are gone

  • Member Posts: 2,280

    We Rulebreakers is this shared account. Believe us if we had alts you'd be getting alot more snark than you are now.

    Why? Because they want to. Because they "believe" that they can't win without doing so. Because they had an opportunity presented and took it. Because they're scared of hatch. Everyone has a different reason just like how not every killer slugs. We swear we had conversation kinda like this with someone else…but we digress.

    The funny thing is that being in a SWF doesn't make a survivor instantly good. Your aware of this correct? Thats a reality right there. We're not really ignoring anything, your just blowing swfs so far out of proportion that we want to make sure if your genuinely serious or not. Does a swf have an advantage? Sure. Does being in a swf multiply the threat of survivors to demonic levels? Nope.

  • Member Posts: 1,066

    Personally I don't think aggressively/proactively slugging constitutes a problem that needs addressing. But I won't go into that since the thread posed its question regardless of that.

    I still thought to mention it because the only two scenarios where I do think a solution is necessary are scenarios in which the killer has already (all but) won, and so the issue of the solution potentially encouraging slugging falls away. Specifically, it is when all remaining survivors in a trial are in the dying state or when only two survivors remain in the trial that I think there needs to be a remedy for continued slugging. Giving survivors in these scenarios the option to "surrender to the entity" and have it sacrifice them EGC-style seems a perfectly fine solution to me, ending the match in which a killer thought to bleed everyone out just to spite them, and forcing the 1v1 endgame in the match where a killer thought to slug and otherwise refuse to kill the second-to-last survivor in order to secure the kill on the last survivor as well.

  • Member Posts: 21

    The solution to the slugging meta isn't to make more perks basekit. The solution to the slugging meta is to unnerf hook perks like pop and pain res and dms, and bring back 60 second hook stages - which was an unnecessary nerf to killer considering they had already introduced anti-face camping.

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    Pain Res is still one of the best perks in the game, I don't see how making it even stronger again is going to move the needle. Pop maybe, that perk is a little mediocre at the moment, but the fact remains that hooking is completely worth it and entirely viable even if none of your perks activate from the hook.

    As for the hook stages thing… what would that achieve except for making camping stronger again?

  • Member Posts: 2,102

    A) none of these changes were even within 6 months of this becoming a "slugging meta". The only changes anywhere close to this timing are the extra 10 seconds per hook stage (which do nothing if you go spread pressure and don't camp or tunnel), and the nerfed to WGLF healing speed. So maybe we should buff WGLF by your logic?

    B) this line of thinking has never worked. They've made endless buffs to killers and nerfs to survivor that people claimed "were the reason killers camp and tunnel" and yet, strangely, every time they "fix one" the goal post moves to the next flavor of the month.

    DS, DH, adrenaline, MfT, CoH, prove, BNP, reassurance ptb, gen speeds, maps, pallet strength, tile logic reworks, distortion. Every single one of those was the "reason for tunneling" at one point supposedly. Yet here we are. I think this month is woo and gen speeds again.

  • Member Posts: 234

    yearly reminder to never listen to anyone who utters the words "spread pressure"

    its the equivalent of a survivor telling you to "just wait it out" with old dead hard

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    It's a term people use in an unhelpfully vague manner a lot, but I'd argue there's a definition of spreading pressure that's very useful and something a lot of players probably do need to practice getting better at.

  • Member Posts: 2,102
    edited February 17

    If you truly feel that way then there's likely nothing I can say to change your mind.

    I simply prefer, as killer, to give most, if not all, of the survivors something to do, whether that's rescue/recovery, chase, or side objectives like killer power (pig hats). I still win the majority of my games doing so.

    The alternative seems to be focusing all your attention on one survivor, leaving 2 or even 3 alone to do gens, and then complaining on the forums that gen speeds are too fast.

  • Member Posts: 234

    I do actually agree with you that people should practice it, cuz some people automatically think "oh tunneling is the best strategy I'll just do that every game". going out of your way to "spread pressure" is a bad strategy but you only learn that after years of trying it.

    but its used as a buzzword by people who want to gaslight you into thinking youre just bad at the game and that you can 8 hook as trapper if youre just good enough, which is not the case

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    That depends on how you define spreading pressure, because to me it's a very good strategy. It's not as easy as tunnelling, slugging, or any other shortcut strategy that pops up, somewhat definitionally, but it's very worthwhile and it's basically safeguarded against nerfs since it's adaptable.

    Pressure, to me, should be defined as survivors being either forced or heavily encouraged to do something other than generators. A survivor on the hook is pressured, they cannot do generators, and the survivor coming to save them is pressured since they can't do that while repairing. To spread your pressure, in this context, would be to already be in a chase before the save happens, because that's a third survivor that's pressured, you can't do gens in chase.

    If you're good at locating survivors and you're good at getting reasonably fast downs, this strategy (really it's just the core gameplay loop) absolutely works.

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    Obviously it's harder on some killers than others, but you can do it on anyone.

    You don't necessarily need chases to be that quick for it to work, since by design you're slowing down generator repair by a lot when you do it.

  • Member Posts: 234
    edited February 17

    it does need to be that quick tho.

    sure, if im playing an a tier killer its a lot more viable.

    but even still, getting someone out ASAP is so much better than purposely keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as possible.

    it requires more effort, its stressful, and it falls apart when all 4 survivors are great loopers. … so why should killers do it?

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    Well, you're certainly right about that last part.

    Tunnelling is much easier. You don't have to worry about half the game's mechanics, you don't have to play tactically, you can just leverage the fact that survivors are more vulnerable immediately post-unhook and win much more consistently off chases that are twice as easy.

    That's an argument for tunnelling being unbalanced, not the basic gameplay loop being a bad strategy.

  • Member Posts: 234

    that description makes it sound like a strategy where you can turn your brain off and automatically win. due to the endless amount of tools that good survivors have been given to counter tunneling, that is not the case if youre going against someone actually good in chase

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    So if it's hard either way, why not go for the option that's going to slow the generators down and that fewer people complain about?

    It can't be simultaneously true that spreading pressure is too difficult and tunnelling is easier, but also tunnelling is just as difficult to pull off.

  • Member Posts: 119

    Killers slug to avoid hook perks and sabo and try to obtain the 4k as easily as possible. Giving a surrender option is not going to change that, it is actually going to encourage it. Killers will be able to slug everyone assuming they will just give up and let the killer move onto their next slug match asap as well.

    I will say right now, I am petty. I will spend my full 4 minutes bleeding out and continue to waste the killers time if they refuse to hook me. I will not surrender.

    This will not fix the issue.

  • Member Posts: 2,102

    No need to be condescending.

    I've always said that camping, tunneling, and slugging are situational. In fact, I consider it a measure of game sense to know when and where to apply those tactics.

    And I agree that a lot of people consider all of those things to be the only thing they know how to do. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". And it's actually a measure of poor skill, imo, if you always do the same thing.

    I do find it funny though, the most recent stats they have is sure that survivors only get, at most, 66 seconds on average for chase per match. So actually, if you're 3 hooking a survivor, each chase is going to last about 20 seconds. And the rest of the time is wasted, especially if you're kicking gens, or wandering blindly without information.

    I don't personally care about the competitive side of things. I want the game to be fun, for all 5 players. I generally consider myself to be average, maybe above average skill. Although to read the forums I've found a way to still kill 60%+ of my survivors, win most of my games, have a fun game that I play how I want, and not "be forced to sweat". So apparently I've cracked the code of DbD, and all it seems to take is not having a meltdown when I occasionally do lose a match. Game sense, understanding how to macro, and using all the tools in the killer kit is apparently a big ask for a lot of people.

  • Member Posts: 234

    I never said that tunneling is just as difficult. Tunneling IS easier, because keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as you can literally allows full efficiency from the survivors.

    The bottom line is that yeah, you can "spread pressure" and still win against most teams in this game. But it is an absolutely horrible strategy when you go against a team who is coordinated and good at looping. Walking from survivor to survivor so you can get fresh hooks just allows them to do gens with no fear knowing that the next kill you get will be 4 hooks down the line.

    This has nothing to do with skill. Watch some of the best competitive players in the world play pubs; when they try to do that against a 4 man even they get destroyed because it is a bad strategy.

  • Member Posts: 8,344

    I feel like, if you're successfully employing this strategy, the survivors very much don't get to just do gens with no fear.

    After all, one of them is on the hook, one of them is being chased, and one of them will have to leave their gen to get the save at least somewhat quickly.

    Compare that to hovering around the hook for tunnelling- in that scenario, there's definitely more generator repair happening, because you're only really occupying two survivors at once. If you can get that done quickly enough, it breaks in your favour because a 1v3 massively favours the killer, but it's still much less efficient and conveys much less slowdown while you're doing it.

    The fact of the matter is, deviations from the core gameplay loop that give better rewards for lower effort than that gameplay loop are going to get changed at some point. In my opinion, it's a lot better to learn the fundamentals, since those aren't likely to get significant changes and any balance changes that do happen won't as badly affect your ability to perform.

  • Member Posts: 234
    edited February 17

    "one of them is on the hook, one of them being chased, and one of them has to leave the gen"

    ok, im chasing the one guy. he doesn't go down in 20 seconds so that means there's still 50 seconds left on the hook timer because 70 sec hook stage. the survivor on the gen go gets the save, they both heal, since the survivor I was chasing is good and maybe the map is busted still have not gotten them yet. the strategy depends on people going down in 20 seconds.

    and besides, what would be the best play in this situation? going to the hook where the hooked person + rescuer is so I can get an easy extra hook stage on the guy who got unhooked (and pressure the other survivor) or keep looking around for people so I can purposely keep them alive, allowing those two survivors to group up on that gen that one of them was working on which will be done by the time I get over there?

    its just not a good strategy, im sorry.

    also you dont need to be "around the hook" for tunneling. it sure helps, but is not necessary.

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