Any plans to remove the locker + DS tech?
Comments
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Just do bones!
Sound familiar?
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The problem is not eating an undeserved DS because you hook people too quickly.
The problem is eating a DS from a survivor WHO IS REPAIRING A [BAD WORD] GENERATOR!
This is the only problem. just this!
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Personally I think DS should deactivate if the survivor starts working on a generator, cleansing a totem, healing a survivor (Self-healing or being healed by other survivors is fine and doesn't deactivate DS) or attempting an unhook. Possibly saboing. Working on a jigsaw box, snapping out of it, mending yourself, waking up from Freddy at an alarm clock (but not mending or waking up another player) or cleansing at a plague fountain is arguably fine.
If you're unhooking a survivor in my face and I grab and interrupt you while DS is up, (or down you right after the unhook) that's NOT tunneling.
If DS deactivated when doing those kinds of actions it'd still be an anti-tunnel perk so a killer can't just tunnel them down so they can't play, it's just if the survivor decides to continue to participate in doing the objectives or altruism before the 60 seconds are up (Again, they are allowed to be healed or self-heal) they forfeit DS.
DS would still be anti-tunnel but can't be abused as god-mode for 60 seconds which is what I dislike about it. I shouldn't be punished for an interrupt on a survivor unhooking someone or working on a hex totem.
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"DS should prevent an immediate rehook, which it does, it should not prevent the killer from interacting with you at all."
Very true.. i think the fix for this cheesy locker+DS mechanic is as simple as make DS not work inside lockers. Then DS can work like a real anti-tunnel perk and not like a 60 sec inmunity of all kind perk..
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I would agree with you. The abusive part would more so be if they were work on a generator, then hop in a locker any time you came close. At that point you're forced to take the stun or allow them to work on the generator unopposed. Though I would argue that the locker isn't the problem there.
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Why should window tech get "fixed"? It is a skill full move that doesnt have any huge benefit. Its really risky thought, if you are smart enough you will hear the footstebs and get a easy free hit. That move grants alot of free hits and is overall not really usefull. It only works on less experienced Killer but with that argument you could say that 360 are op aswell...
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How often does that happen? 80% of the time I don’t even get to use DS as most killers play around that and BT. Not to mention DS is 60sec which is not long at all, Scott’s mission for Locker DS into Head on into flashlight is as extreme as it can be and even that is a very difficult thing to achieve. Changing one method of forcing a DS stun based on extreme examples seems illogical.
if anything has to be changed with DS then imo it should be if you hook a second person then it deactivates if they are not downed. at that point you aren’t tunneling.
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I'll agree with you there.
I'd Love to Trade NOED for BT or DS.
No free kills, no free escapes.
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Not often, but in any case, you're arguing with someone who feels the same as you. I don't think the locker by itself is the problem, it's the fact that it stays active even after you start working on generators. I have no issue with it activating when you grab someone from a locker, personally.
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A lot of you survivors are saying "stop tunneling" have y'all considered the fact that a killer can hook 2 other survivors and still get hit with DS?
Interruption actions (grabs) shouldn't trigger DS imo simply because you survivors force DS thinking that the killer will leave you alone, just to only DC or get salty in post game chat.
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What about the scenario where the gen is next to the hook you're hanging from and it's almost completed. You get unhooked, you finish the gen as the killer rushes towards you and BAM, he hits you as the gen is completed.
Happens to me quite a bit.
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Sounds to me like you opted to do a generator and put yourself back into the running. You aren't really being tunneled at that point. They're chasing you off a gen, not off the hook.
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Tomatoe, Tomato.
I can see that as well.
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My point isn't being aimed at you directly, but as a general counter to the idea of nerfing DS this way
as to it being used while working on a gen, its still in the end a 1-off perk that will by you a few seconds if you decide to waste it that way
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Because the killer model shouldn't be able to be phased through when vaulting? I get that it's an issue with the actual vault mechanic, but it's idiotic. Much like the hook tech.
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Maybe make the time deplete twice as fast if you are working on a gen.
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It should obciously be removed instantly if you work on a gen, heal someone or do totems as you obviously aint being tunneled if you do that.
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60 seconds isn't "a few seconds". It's 3/4 of a gen all by yourself, during which the killer has to choose whether to let you go without any downside, slap you and draw another survivor to that gen so you both finish it even faster, or take the stun for absolutely no benefit besides taking away your free escape card. And then if the killer takes the last option, survivors will generally start losing their minds over "tunneling" and do their best to make the rest of the match for the killer as miserable as possible.
And, of course, all of that is ignoring the situations where you can force the killer into a grab and force them to eat the stun, like locker slamming right next to an unfinished gen.
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A very interesting idea. Although at least for me the true evil of this perk is being able to activate it in EGC/after all gens are done. And i remark after all gens are done because is very easy for a survivor to just leave the gates at 99% thus, it should deactivate in those both cases.
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The locker trick is a very unique mind game that should stay in the game. The killer doesn't know if the actually have ds or inner strength. They also could have head-on so it is a very cool mind game.
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Except there's no risk for the survivor, and nothing but risk for the killer. If the survivor knows they're going to get hit, they can just get in a locker after an unhook, and have nothing but, at worst, neutral outcomes. Meanwhile, the killer has to worry about everything you just listed, and has no real way to mitigate that risk.
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Such a simple but perfect change. It's a shame they haven't done this yet.
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yea thats not even the issue my dude. The issue is that DS isn't an anti tunneling perk, it's a free getaway perk and you know it lol. I once hooked someone, once they were off the hook I hooked 2 other people, found him in a locker and he still DS'd me. That's not fair in any form, DS needs too go away once the killer hooks someone else so it can actually be an anti tunneling perk.
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Stop removing some of the things in the game the require some kind of skill to pull off.
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That's a lie and we all know it lol. I shouldn't be DS stunned when I play killer after I already hooked 1 or 2 people. That's not a "DS play" that's an abusive scenario where the killer has too loose.
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One of many risk and reward scenarios in this game. There are many of these on both killer and survivor.
I think the game is at it's best when you do mind games. I think of all the "problems" this game has this isn't one of them.
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It's not a mindgame. There's no game to it. It's just a degenerate strategy.
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Can we please have a obsession perk that helps with camping I'm tired of being chosen as the obsession and deleted from match.
Better yet can we ditch our obsession status onto the flashlight user?
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You just show you don't understand how the game works with this comment.
On skilled level plays killer will down one survivor and chase the other to apply pressure. In that way three survivors are occupied, one working on gen. 1 downed, 1 chased, and 1 going for the heal of the downed.
If you jump in a locker you just say FU to the killer. It stops the pressure.
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If ds is such an issue for you then just slug them. If they jump in a locker then just eat ths ds and leave them
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It’s not easy and it should be buffed so the skill check is bigger. Because That perk DOES take up a perk slot and is very situational. They should just put a ######### baseball bat in the game with limited uses that you can find in a chest. It can be really difficult to get a killer off your ass sometimes there should be more. I don’t Like queuing up for games as a survivor where I’m just getting tunneled hard and beat down. It’s deflating. They ought to make it easier to stay hidden it makes the game more suspenseful. I see lack of cover and dead ends everywhere on some of these maps. Map design is terrible. Swamp is my fav tho. Lerys offers good line of sight breaks from there being a lot of small rooms to pass through.
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Agree.. this is just the truth
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We don't want to tunnel, we want to keep people off generators. I'll respect DS when they're on the ground as it still gives me momentum without putting them on a hook. Somebody jumping in a locker does neither of these things. They stay injured, or even healthy if the have Inner Strength, and I'm forced to either eat a stun or wait an unknown amount of time because the SURVIVOR is too boosted to loop me, since they clearly had the ability to make at least some distance from the hook to the locker.
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Make the person who has D.S. active Repair the gen slower (25%?) than if they didn't have it activated.
So if I get off the hook D.S. is active, I now repair the gen 25% slower. Once D.S. deactivates, I gain the normal Gen speed back.
Would that be a proper solution?
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I drop them on the ground to disable them, then I go for the rescuer. Locker Tech gives no momentum and rewards survivors for sucking at looping
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hooking survivors isn't a mistake tho, it's just how the game works
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enough with the DS nerfs lol survivors need to be able to have a better chance to get away if you’re picking them up within that full minute after they’ve been hooked anyways. Why do you feel as though you deserve that 2nd hook on that guy when you just camped him? I want a bigger skill check on that thing or longer stun because 5 seconds sometimes isn’t enough with how fast the killer is he’s back on your ass anyways
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Run trapper and trap that locker forcing them to stay in there.
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At dis point in time im just eatiing the d.s. you chase some one els and having it be a short chase. You find the survivor and ta da...D S ur azz. It been times i got 3 times in a row and not "tunneling". But dont get me wrong it sucks. Ppl who say dont tunne3l dont play killer and if they do they rank 20. A full rank 1 team the one where u have a chase n 3 gens pop....yes its normal. You HAVE to tunnel or slug a bit to Win.
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Dude
1) Dont get angry.
2) The devs are looking at abuses that this Perk may cause and will nerf it accordingly they litterally stated this in this thread.
So I proposed a worthy fix. What downside does D.S. have? NONE. I am providing one. So shush and calm down please. No need to be defensive. No one even stated we wanted a second hook. Hell my proposal isn't even aiming at a second hook. It punishes the survivor for having D.S. active. That's all. It doesn't make you exposed or male your aura be read by the killer, so trying to call me out and being rude isnt solving your issue. That's probably why you are jailed. So once you calm down reread my comment and this thread (mostly the Devs comments) then please provide constructive feedback. Thank you.
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You know what? Just equip moris, easy counter to DS. Granted not for the locker but that is just the way it is and will be.
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Maybe the better question is why do killers feel the need to slug freshly-unhooked survivors and commit the unpardonable sin of "tunneling" in the first place.
Could it be that generator speeds are so ridiculous that putting a survivor on the ground, even one I can't pick up, slows the game down as Monto would say "just a little bit" occupying at least one other survivor to go for the heal?
What's moronic about DS is it's supposed to fix "tunneling" except we already have a perk for that in borrowed time.
Fixing DS would fix a symptom, not the actual disease. I literally grabbed someone off a generator to start a game as wraith, we're talking 40 seconds max, thanks to two survivors on the same gen and a BNP, a generator POPPED. No chase, no multiple hits, literally grab and hook, 20% of objectives completed in that time.
So yes, I'm going to tunnel and slug you off the hook, and if one of you is on the hook and the other is slugged I'm going to proxy camp you too, and if I don't think that's enough I'm bringing Mori's so I can tell you what I think of your DS as I'm killing you in a way I can only describe as highly disturbing.
And it will not stop until some of this nonsense is addressed.
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Just woke up and saw how much this thread blew up. I'm going to run down some of the counter arguments I've been seeing as to why DS shouldn't be nerfed.
"It counters tunneling"This is very common misconception from people who don't understand killer priorities. If in a game as killer, you know that at least 1 out of the 4 survivors will instantly escape your grasp after an unhook, you'll want to get rid of that second chance as soon as possible.
Why?
Because although losing a survivor can falter your game momentum, it's far better to eat the stun early on when if the gates are opened the survivor will simply run towards them after the stun and get a free escape. And once you've eaten a stun, you know which of the 4 survivors no longer has DS, encouraging you to tunnel them further as to get your momentum back.
DS, essentially, promotes tunnelling. It doesn't counter it at all.
"It punishes campers"Ignoring the fact that some individuals see existing on the map as camping, this is also false. Say it's the end game and you've got someone hooked. Both the gates are open and you have no idea where the other survivors are.
Why would you leave the hook? It is only strategically sound decision to make if you want a kill. Camping is the only viable option.
Now say that despite you camping the person on the hook they are saved in your face and immediately downed again. How is it far that they should then get a free escape because the killer was playing optimally?
in this scenario, it is physically impossible to down someone else because the gates are already opened and if you can't insta-down anyone they'll just run to gates after getting injured. Why, then, should picking up the only person that it makes sense to down result in the person getting a free escape?
True, in some cases killers in-optimally decide to camp when they could patrol gens. But even then camping already has a counter that existed way before DS.
Doing gens while the killer isn't pressuring them.
Deciding to unhook in the killer's face should not be rewarded. Doing your objective should.
"It helps solo players when they have bad team mates"I'll agree that it can be frustrating as hell some idiot unhooks me directly in front of the killer. But punishing the killer for capitalising on survivor mistakes isn't the way to fix this.
In my opinion, dbd should be balanced around 4 player communication and completely close the gap between solo players and 4-man squads.
Keeping DS in it's current state, a state that can be just as easily abused by a single player as it can 4, just promotes stale gameplay and further sours the already boring survivor perk meta.
"You're just a bad killer. Go after someone else and stop tunneling"As much of a straw man as this seems, I've seen this "argument" fairly often in the forums.
Needless to say that anyone who uses it has their opinion on the matter automatically voided.
Ad Hominem's don't equal good points. Stop using them and try to understand the game better before making stupid statements.
"DS just needs some changes to balance it out. The locker tech isn't the problem."One of the more reasonable arguments, but still wrong.
Ever since DS has been released it has been broken. Giving a survivor a free escape without a drawback in any context is objectively bad design.
Can you imagine if there was a killer perk that automatically downed survivors who tried to repair gens once per match with no drawbacks?
That's DS. A perk that punishes the killer for doing their job correctly and rewards the survivor for making mistakes.
The locker tech is just compounding the problem of how DS is designed.
"Just make it so that DS deactivates once the survivor starts performing and action like repairing or healing"While I agree that this is a step in the right direction, it still doesn't fix the problem of DS becoming a free escape during the end game.
This could also be easily abused by survivors that deliberately body block after getting saved so the killer has to wait out the timer anyway, or just eat the stun. Speaking of which...
"Just eat the stun"I've already mentioned just how bad eating a stun is for your game momentum as a killer. This logic is like saying "just get downed after you're exposed by MYC". Except MYC actually has a specific requirement to activate that the killer has to go out of their way to ensure it does.
Whereas DS has such an easy to activate requirement that anyone, no matter how bad, will still be able to waste the killer's time by making mistakes. Something that they should actively avoid doing.
"DS isn't even a problem"This is the last one I'll address for now.
If you genuinely think this, you don't understand the game on a fundamental level.
Giving a particular side, in any game, rewards for messing up makes the game stale and boring because there's less incentive to perform well and improve.
A well coordinated team of survivors doesn't even need perks to completely ruin 9-10 killers day. But the existence of DS makes it so that the same can be true of people who have no idea what they're doing.
In short, not only does the locker tech with DS desperately need to go, the perk needs a massive drawback for the power it offers.
Something that will affect survivors both during the early and end game.
Well that's all she wrote. Thanks for making it this far. I never expected my post would get this much attention.
Post edited by SirCracken on7 -
A simple fix would be to bring back the juggle if you grab the survivor but only a single juggle.
If you pick them up from the ground, it works like it usually does but if your able to grab the survivor from a locker, gen, while unhooking etc it should give you a chance to drop the survivor.
I think this would fix the majority scenarios where survivors abuse the perk.
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System decided to copy my comment from earlier.
Ignore this.
Post edited by SirCracken on0 -
1) It's core design is to counter tunnelling, that we can't deny. It's supposed to punish a Killer if they pursue a player who was recently unhooked.
Currently, it is used for more than countering tunnelling.
2) It unintentionally counters camping. It's not designed to counter camping, but it will help a Survivor to escape from a camped situation.
3) You're looking at this from the wrong angle. You ask "Why should the Killer be punished for Survivor mistakes?", but ignore "Why should the unhooked Survivor be punished for another Survivor's mistake?".
This is why DS was designed to be strong. Solo Survivors need a chance to get out of the situation that they've been unfairly dropped into. Yes, it's unfair to the Killer who wants to tunnel, but that's why it's an anti-tunnel perk.
4) The person who posted that statement is an idiot.
5) There is a drawback of having to be hooked to activate it (don't know why this is glossed over). A Killer equivalent perk would be MYC.
Balance changes are needed, and once applied the Locker + DS combo won't be an issue.
6) It punishes the Survivor for doing anything else other than being chased.
7) The statement misses some detail. If you can catch the Survivor easily, eat the stun. If not, chase someone else. Eating the stun is a valid option, but only against some Survivors.
8) DS needs some balance changes, most of the community agrees on that.
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Didn't even tunnel. Hook one in basement. His friend wants to "suicide", run behind me and unhook him. After that this guy hide in locker for one minute and DC after i grab him out.
Good odds - while me waiting for two survs in basement, only two gens is completed. But yes, DS locker abuser should be fixed.
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What comes to my mind on this one is, that we always talk about counterplay. And if slugging is counterplay to DS, that is simply removed by entering lockers.
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"If you decide to waste it like that" is exactly the point. Then it is not an anti tunnel perk anymore, it becomes a mobile pallet with 5 second stun. With new toolboxes that means like free 16% gen progression.
@Vampire @deadbyhitbox this would not be a good solution. A typical scenario is the hook exchange. Killer hits before and after unhook. Could do the hook exchange now but with your change it would allow to go after the unhhoked and down him. Then get back to the downed saver and hook him, negating the DS of the unhooked.
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