Rip PH
Comments
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The PTB hasn't even released yet. I don't remember Ruin being a PR ######### up either; the forums are not representative of the player base as a whole. We're generally people who care too much.
This narrative of releasing strong killers that they then nerf into the ground doesn't seem based in fact. Let's think about the last few killers.
- If I recall correctly Oni had a tweak for using Demon Dash that was aimed at making turning on PC and console more similar, but he's been a very strong killer throughout.
- Deathslinger hasn't had many changes either way and is in a Legion-esque bad place right now (not that strong, yet unfun to play against). Still, he's never been perceived as strong, so I don't think people are buying him for that reason. He probably just looks fun.
- Pyramid Head so far hasn't been changed much after launch (aside from not being able to see cages now to prevent tunnelling) and the devs have stated they don't intend to nerf him here. He's a very strong killer and should still be very strong after the proposed changes.
- Blight was heavily buffed over the PTB. While it remains to see how strong he is, I think he's going to be mid tier. He clearly doesn't have a broad perception of being strong, though, so I also don't expect people are buying him for that reason. He probably also just looks fun.
What was the last killer to get a big nerf after launch? I seriously can't remember one. Maybe Spirit, since she now has a vault animation, she had some add-ons nerfed, and she had collision removed? That'd be a bad example regardless since she's still one of the best killers in the game, though.
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No no no, he's dead.
Here's a video that explains it better
The attack is just a very poor attack. If they improved the turning and speed it might have been a trade off, changing the cooldown slightly does nothing.
Watch the BOTB finals. Players with 6000 hours missing the shots again and again and again because good players can avoid it so easily. Even the hosts saying it's not worth using the attack and you might as well just cheese it for the confirmed hit.
He might be ok at green ranks where survivors just run in a straight line but he's going to be garbage against good players.
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You say that, but you would be silly not to use this strategy as PH. I don't care if you're a good killer or a bad one; a borderline free hit is a borderline free hit, and anyone who's playing to win should be taking advantage of that.
But yes, please, let's do the same for Deathslinger. I'm thrilled PH is getting these changes.
If they clean up Deathslinger and they make Legion not so goddamned annoying I don't think there will be a killer in the game that I don't have fun playing against. Well, maybe Freddy. He needs a nerf to his snares.
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Zoning is the opposite of mindgaming lol; that's the issue. It's a lose/lose situation for the survivor. The only way they don't take a hit is if the PH messes up or if they have Dead Hard. It's also hard to talk about whether or not he should have been given a larger buff to compensate when we have no idea how big the changes are even going to be. Let's wait for the PTB.
As for the perks, do you have any complaints with the changes they did make (other than Pop, I guess)? They're not going to be able to fix every perk in the game all at once, but I'm glad they've been making gradual improvements. I'm a fan of all of the changes they announced.
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Lol at using the BOTB as a frame of reference for skill. Most of the really good players didn't even bother with the tourney. The majority of the those players actually in it were suspect. I was honestly amazed how bad most of them were.
PH needs this change. It will force people to use his power intelligently instead of waiting for free hits which is brainless. He will be fine against good players unless YOU are bad using him.
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Oh yeah. I gotta use up all my mori before the Devs Nerf that too.
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I wrote a haiku
Used to be much fun
Rivers of salty tears
Now he becomes crap
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Nah, this will weed out the poor PH killer mains. This whole post seems like it came from a killer perpetually stuck in white/green ranks.
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Ok watched the video. He won't be dead but maybe a change to his turning would be nice.
The 6000 hour thing doesn't mean much tbh. I've got 3000+ hours but doesn't mean I'm great with every killer. I could be a worse Deathslinger than someone with 500 hours. They could just be bad Pyramid Heads.
If they need to give him another slight buff after ptb they will based off of tthe feedback.
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I very much doubt they will change him in that way to be honest. People have given this feedback since day 1 along with survivors complaining about the lose/lose situation. BHVR has had months to listen to feedback and they've made up their mind that they will address some but not the rest.
If they had any intention of changing his attack based on feedback they've had months to prepare for it but nothing. It's not on the cards.
Otz thinks he might be worse to play against tbh because now he might just spam his POTD more. I disagree though because I don't think the cooldown will be much shorter at all.
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Im pretty sure they're only decreasing his cool down for punishment on missed attacks. Not ones where you connect the hit.
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Oni got gutted, then made tolerable after a few months. Hangman's trick and one of deathslinger crappy perks got nerfed. Blight compound 21. Now pyramid head.
Dozens of people got banned, every streamer was calling out their bias, mods were removing every ruin thread. It was a nightmare because the devs told the truth for once.
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Yeah this was not the right direction on a change I could get a cool down if it was actually a strong ability that wasn’t massively easy to dodge.
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We don’t have any numbers yet, so he might not be dead. If he is dead though, then it’s almost guaranteed that Deathslinger and Spirit are next. They often get lumped together with PH when it comes to Killers that “need” a nerf.
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Remember when they announced PH was losing the ability to see cages and people were saying Pyramid head was gutted? LMAO you’re all overreacting
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I never said not to use it. You absolutely would be silly to purposely gimp yourself by not doing the most effective thing you can do.
I simply said that spamming your M2 for free zoning with zero mind game takes no skill, and only GOOD killers will persevere.
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Yeah, but it is so easy to avoid his power, that when you aren't in animation lock, you won't get hits against good survivors. He is frozen in place when attacking, and there is a big red marker for where he is going to shoot. He needs more buffs in compensation for his zoning nerf.
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Yea someone said about making his turning better which I didn't really mind.
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it is not a bad change. If the new recovery rate can be equal to normal attack, it would be acceptable to the nerf.
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So is this my funeral
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So am I late to my funeral
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That only hurt people that wanted to camp cages.
As someone who plays PH I’m telling you this is the nail in the coffin. It hands control of the chase to the survivor.
They compare him to Huntress....except hatchets are infinitely better than POTD. If POTD was on par with a hatchet then people wouldnt be complaining as much, but that attack isnt receiving any buffs other than the cooldown in which theres not a chance they make it any shorter than an M1 whiff and an M1 whiff can still allow survivors to make another loop.
They compare him to Demo but Demo is trash, besides he can zone too but the only reason nobody complains is because he’s a very weak killer. Hard to be frustrated by a killer when you’re tbagging from the exit gates.
Its funny because survivors will still complain. Theres a few minor situations in the game where the survivor may be trapped at a pallet, the corners of lerys for example. Just wait until PH spams his power over and over and over again for the hit, survivors will be calling for another nerf.
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I don't understand why he needs a nerf he was neither strong nor weak he was an average killer and with this he will simply become a killer trash and we will stop seeing him in games, as a demogorgon, clown ...
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and yet nothing has to be done to weed out the weak survivor mains. Can't last in a chase? bring sprint burst/dead hard for free time, abuse badly designed areas of maps. No awareness? bring spine chill. Not very good at the game? just have your swf carry you then join in at the tbagging at the exit.
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That's what Otz thinks too. PH is already rare and will disappear. I'm already ditching him because I can tell how this will go. He wasn't even that strong as you say.
Alternative is people are theorizing that hes just going to spam his m2 now at loops over and over again and survivors will have something new to complain about.
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Gutted how? Oni is very strong and has been very strong since launch. What did they change other than his turning speed in demon dash?
Hangman's Trick got a substantial buff when Sabo happened. It also got a buff shortly after it was originally released to affect bear traps too. It has never been nerfed. Are you talking about PTB versions of the perk? If so, the point of the PTB is to test the perks. Of course there are going to be changes. This was also years after Pig released, so I don't see how this has anything to do with tricking people into buying DLC.
I am not aware of any changes to Deathslinger's perks. There's also nothing on the wiki. I'm assuming you're talking about the PTB, which was never live, and which is therefore not selling DLC. They release patch notes before the DLC is even available for purchase.
Blight's compound 21 was OP as hell, especially for its rarity. It needed a nerf, which is why it got one. I guarantee you that not a single person bought the most recent DLC specifically because they wanted to use compound 21, and also now regret their decision because it was nerfed.
Pyramid head is not getting nerfed. They have explicitly said this is not intended to be a nerf. He's in theory just going to be more fun for both sides.
I don't even know what you're talking about with the bans, streamer complaints of bias, or devs telling the truth for once. Did a streamer accuse them of this bait and switch scheme? That would at least explain why so many people on the forums keep parroting this.
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"Pyramid head is not getting nerfed. They have explicitly said this is not intended to be a nerf. He's in theory just going to be more fun for both sides."
We call this "spin". They say it's not a nerf and it's more fun for both sides yet with 3 months of feedback they've listened to survivor feedback and not killer feedback. It's 100% intended to be more fun for survivors, hence why overrall it's going to be a nerf.
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Good killers are good at killing... meaning they will know this technique gives them an advantage, and they will use it. Good killers are certainly capable of making more skillful plays with Pyramid Head, but they don't need to, so they won't.
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Stop with the needless killer main/survivor main tribalism, they of course listen to everyone's feedback. BHVR has every incentive to make both survivor and killer fun to play, and to make the game balanced overall. They obviously would not get there by only taking feedback from the survivor side.
PH is currently fun enough as killer, but miserable to play against as survivor unless the killer is a potato. Zoning is a lose/lose, so all you can do is hope the killer is bad. That is why they are getting negative feedback from survivor. The feedback was justified, and Behaviour was right to listen to it as they should all feedback.
The problem is, and has always been, the lack of counterplay to zoning. The problem is not his strength, so the solution is not making him weaker. Their proposed solution is to increase counterplay to zoning while buffing POTD so as to make it feel less punishing and to balance out the other nerf. That is a perfect solution in theory, and we don't even have numbers on the changes yet. Just play the PTB in two days, keep an open mind, and submit feedback if it's bad. Easy.
Also
"I don't understand why he needs a nerf he was neither strong nor weak he was an average killer and with this he will simply become a killer trash and we will stop seeing him in games"
"That's what Otz thinks too. PH is already rare and will disappear."
?
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You say they listen to feedback but only one sides feedback is being implemented. There is plenty on the survivor side that makes the low tier killers not fun to play, exhaustion perks and bad map design for example leading to long chases that take no skill on the survivor side.
When I quoted Otz I was referring to the part about PH disappearing. He thinks that might happen. Also yeah A tier is strong but not super oppressive.
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They do now.
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It would also be interesting if we look at Dowsey's tier list, where he places PH similarly to Otz but also states he's S tier in a sweaty tournament setting, which he's also shown a bunch in practise, too.
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Yes, that's exactly why they removed infinites and reworked entire maps, even making some of them SMALLER in order to make it easier for killers to actually apply map pressure. Yep, only survivors being listened to, 100%.
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We're talking about feedback on PyramidHead. Context SunderMun, context.
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Plus, you know, they may not ONLY listen to survivors, but there's a clear survivor bias. Almo's reasoning (and therein lack of response afterward) for the PGTW nerf shows that blatantly.
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The context isn't relevant when your claim is that they only listen to survivors.
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Yea that’s the thing I honestly think comparing these two killers doesn’t work. Not only because pp head is 115% AND has a whole other, but both attacks work differently and have their own strengths and weaknesses.
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"only one sides feedback is being implemented."
Implemented.....as in being implemented in the case of the PH changes.
Stop trying to make it something it's not.
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Gotta love the boosted survivors in this thread, claiming there is only lose/lose situation when all you had to do was predrop a pallet. Meanwhile you play SWF with OoO and think that is balanced.
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Pre dropping a pallet isn't a solution, now is it a counter. Sure you might be safe. Maybe. If his power that can go through pallets to begin with doesn't hit you. The bigger issue with your flawed logic is the fact that predropping pallets encourages survivors to waste pallets and leave their team mates with nothing to work with. Your assertion that SWF w/object is common (I've seen this maybe 1 in 100 games in my over 4k hours of this game, more than half of that as killer) shows how little you know about this game.
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SWF w/object is nothing uncommon, i used to run this all the time, @azame is using it right now, a friend of mine does so too and I have seen it several times as killer so please spare me the anecdotes, thanks.
To the point of wasting pallets, wasting pallets isn't wasting pallets when you can actually play the game and do the objective in the meantime. This just shows your blatant greed to waste even more time of the killer as survivor, check out botb rounds and check out what they did with loopable killers such as freddy and ph. To even state that you think it is a waste when you do not get hit because you threw the pallet, shows how little you know about the game and how it can be played. Also have you ever played against clown? Probably not, yet you predrop the pallet there too and literally nobody is going to say it is a waste but somehow against ph it is, lmao.
Yes PH power can go through solid objects but it is being telegraphed, gives enough time to react without hassle. So unless a person is either braindamaged or just really sucks at the game, you do not hit a survivor with it unless the survivor is locked into animation or running through something narrow that they can not move enough to avoid the hit.
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Let me get this straight. PH will no longer be able to strategically place trails sporadically without being forced into a ranged attack animation? So the only solution here to avoid this animation delay is to spend your entire trail pool, negating any strategy for placing trails here and there. Fantastic. Wd on removing skill and strategy from PH.
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All meaningless when each shot gives an audio notification and a visual notification before the attack actually happens. the killers light is also shows where the attack will go at all times and if you keep out of it the attack will miss you.
He has no control over his movement while casting ROJ no strafe or reverse, and mouse sensitivity is destroyed and capped. His power is Z tier outside of animation locks and if you get hit by it out in the open you need to go back to r 20.
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Why everybody says that?
How many pallets are in the long tunnel that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to dodge?
Somehow I've seen a lot of survivors that know they can do small 360 before or after the pallet that makes hitting them really hard.
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yep.
The actual fix was to make ROJ faster to cast but then survivors would cry.
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Hence my point about them only listening to feedback from one side. People that played PH asked for minor POTD improvements but all of those got ignored, which shows that these changes are being done specifically to make him more fun for survivor, which means it's going to be a net nerf.
If the delay is long enough PH will end up being like wraith where you have to bodyblock a window so a survivor can't quickly juke through it, yay sounds fun.
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You shouldn’t be comparing pyramids attack to huntresses though. You wanna know why? Pyramid head has a smaller terrors radius, has another whole ability and is 115% movement speed. Could u imagine if his power was as strong as huntress but he kept these additional benefits which huntres doesn’t have? Just because a killer is missing a few things doesn’t automatically mean they are bad or worse than another killer. Why don’t you look at some of the things his power alone has over huntress: Ability to shoot through walls, ability to move faster than survivors when charging it and a slightly larger collision box.
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Like I’ve said numerous times, his power yes is not as good as someone like huntress but remember how many more things he has going for him than her. 115% movement speed, smaller terror radius, unlimited shots AND ability to shoot through walls meaning he doesn’t suffer from map rng as much.. Also can you not say the same about the ability to dodge a huntress attack? Yes she doesn’t have limited horizontal movement but I would say this is a small drawback and a small price to pay for pyramid head considering he has so many other benefits which huntress does not enjoy
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But its the survivors that compare him to Huntress when talking about his ability to cancel a ranged attack and go for an M1.
Yes it is apples to oranges though
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He already had so many things going for him that the bait was just unnecessary. Also his counterplay is a different topic it’s not really to do with his strengths or whatever. I don’t care if you invent a nurse type killer as long as you can have fun and counter them like you can with nurse
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