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Slugging is now a dead strat!

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Comments

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    Twins still has 45s to pickup like everyone else, but I'll be fair and say they more realistically have 30s.

    The counter to double locker flashlights is spamming open on one of the two, as the other will run out of juice soon enough.

    Impossible to pickup is a fair complaint, but that would still have largely the same effect before and after.

    Sabos- see all the counters already listed in this thread by myself and others. Also Survivors stuck on Sabo duty are Survivors not fixing Gens. You will win eventually if you play right. Drop early and often if you have to. Just like Survivors can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of gen progression, returning to the same gen popped 10 times, Killers can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of specifically hooking one Survivor they downed. Understand and adapt. I loved using Tinkerer Pop on Clown on a single gen with 5 gens still remaining. Some players are so dumb they never learn and that is hilarious to me.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940

    to be fair you're right about sabo on midwich but it's a huge map issue has nothing to do with this update

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    So in your extreme example you are worried about the 2 Survivors who dedicated Breakdown, Tenacity, Unbreakable, and Saboteur, and you are trying to hook those 2? You never once entertain the thought you should try to hook the 2 on gens? That sounds like a failing on your part. You don't think about defending 3 gens near basement? You don't think about defending the more center gens so they can't sabo you en-route? It sounds like the failing is entirely on you for being unwilling to think. I don't think anyone should be punished for someone else choosing not to think.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
    edited September 2022

    So what they can always nerf boil over if it's really that good, in 1500 hours of playtime and half of it playing killer I never had any issue with boil over except maybe once or twice, played against a lot of knock out builds tho, pretty hard to counter in solo q without comms

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • SpaghettiVase
    SpaghettiVase Member Posts: 341

    Love me some survivors who “just want to have fun” which means either sweating gens or making the killer as miserable as possible. “Just wanna have fun guys smh”

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,815

    breaking up strategies that are detrimental to other players is one thing, but they generally need a healthy alternative first. Its the mistake that they keep making and refusing to learn from.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,908

    I'm not saying it's op. I'm saying this change will cause a problem. People who do this, they are actively working on objectives. If you chase them, they are completely safe. While you're chasing them. That's 3 survivors getting free time on gens. If you don't chase them, then that's them getting risk free time working on an objective. Doing a chase is risk vs reward. For boil players who run to hook dead zones, it's all risk and no reward. That's a problem. Either you chase and give the other survivors free gen time, or you don't chase and still have a survivor getting free gen time. If you could chase down and hook or slug the survivor, then you are rewarded with the other survivors having to pull away from gens to save them.

    Now, that's not going to be a thing. That's a big problem. Now anyone running the strat will always be giving their team an uncounterable edge - a guaranteed gen progression at any given moment.

    It's not a big problem currently because you can just slug them and put pressure, but it will be a HUGE problem if they can simply get themselves up. If you chase them, they find their safety area. No one has to get them if they go down. So, the chase ends up being entirely fruitless, so what do you do? They get a free pass. They are untouchable for the match. You can't chase them.

  • Jangles
    Jangles Member Posts: 377

    Now this is a breath of fresh air. Great update guys, can't wait to see it live :D

  • SpaghettiVase
    SpaghettiVase Member Posts: 341

    The only reason this change seems to exist is because of the last survivor mori thing instantly ending the game. I say if thats the whole point for this crap then BhVr just dont even bother. I don’t give a rats ass about moris and never have so just dont screw your game health royally because you want moris to be “cinematic” get out of here with that crap.

  • WorthlessBeing
    WorthlessBeing Member Posts: 378

    Okay TBH today isn't my day. I had a really rough game from a bully squad because I did a daily with a Killer I never play - and some personal stuff - but that's to say I may have overreacted a bit. I just think it'll backfire immensely. Killers are still in a good spot. But for how long idk.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,740
    edited September 2022

    there's a slight problem. DS is 60 seconds, but being pick-up is 45 seconds. With DS+Soulguard, you created lose/lose situation for the killer where the killer cannot slug to avoid decisive strike and the killer cannot camp bodies because soul guard grants endurance when being picked up on the ground. Cases where a sabotage on hooks force the killer to slug but the unbreakable punishes the killer for the only play available to them.

    Removing slugging entirely from the game heavily simplifies the game and removes variance from the trial. I like how every killer is unique and has different strength's. Killers like Twins have long walking time between downing a survivor and hooking them so their play-style of slugging is punished. Oni is kicked out of his ability when picking up a survivor and his power has some incentives to slug. Sadako has niche play-style in slugging. Slugging for map pressure is entirely gone and the decision to hook becomes binary decision.

  • Dito175
    Dito175 Member Posts: 1,395
  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    Survivors immune - They still have the 4 minute bleedout timer, they can still be injured, they can still be downed. They are never immune.

    Midwich is notoriously Killer sided, so this one sabo interaction is one of the few times the map is made more even. That is far from an issue since you now can quickly down the sabo Surv. The corner map lack of hook is a lack of foresight on the Killer's part. I always death hook Survivors where I want to burn a hook. That is the case of macro gameplay failing on the Killer's part. If the Survs doing gens can always run back to this alleged deadzone corner they are playing a losing game of attrition. You can also injure without downing them, forcing them to group up and heal, or preventing them from using the speedboost to W back into the corner.

    There may need to be some changes to this such as my recommendation to instead have 30s to 95%, then 30s more to 95->100%, but the hoops you needed to jump through to prevent this alleged bully abuse are far far far less common than the current excessive slugging abuse this change is meant to curtail. Even with your examples I provided a counter to each of them. It was your unwillingness to try those solutions or even acknowledge their existence that is causing you to feel "bullied" when they happen. Slugging was never required for an excess of 45s. I have provided numerous counters to each scenario I have read. If people are unwilling to learn I cannot force feed them the knowledge they seek. In those cases it appears they are arguing in bad faith and merely want to keep excessive slugging abuse cases, as opposed to legitimately seeking a counter.

  • H2H
    H2H Member Posts: 740

    The only way this change is okay is if killers become immune to blinds and stuns when picking up or carrying survivors.

  • CosmicScarab
    CosmicScarab Member Posts: 160
    edited September 2022

    It isn't just boil over that will be a problem, it is also being unable to slug survivors under pallets and who have friends waiting for flashlight saves when they are in the open. These changes introduce a lot of problems that BHVR clearly hasn't thought about.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • I_CAME
    I_CAME Member Posts: 1,292
    edited September 2022

    I get it and I also don't get it. Slugging is incredibly unfun for playing survivor. 2-3 minutes of doing nothing is not enjoyable so it makes sense that they want to stop this. On the other hand this is incredibly powerful in the hands of decent players. Anyone who has extensively played killer knows how much a single unbreakable can change a game. I think the issue of camping is a much bigger deal personally. I find it interesting that they're willing to give basekit unbreakable but not some sort of basekit mechanic for facecamping.

  • CosmicScarab
    CosmicScarab Member Posts: 160

    That still leaves the problem of being unable to slug when survivors are under pallets or have a friend waiting with a flashlight while they are in the open. BHVR hasn't thought this update through and it will only make SWF even more powerful, which is not something we need.

  • SpaghettiVase
    SpaghettiVase Member Posts: 341


    quick correction they have technically acknowledged the hacker situation! They asked a question in the player survey to gauge how frustrated players are when they encounter a hacker…i feel like bhvr is really gonna come out and say “ha we were the hackers the whole time” and just shut the game down

  • Relix_Fichter
    Relix_Fichter Member Posts: 17

    This is an excellent change and another significant step towards modernizing mechanics left over from a very different era of DbD.

  • hatchetChugger
    hatchetChugger Member Posts: 442

    No, I disagree. BT basekit did not make tunneling a dead strategy, so I am betting slugging will still be useable if this change goes through. I am not a fan of giving survivors more basekit tools to deal with killer strategies, but I will have to wait and see how it fans out. Slugged survivors are usually picked up by teammates in under or around 45 seconds anyways so in my mind, this will only make a difference in 4-man-slug attempts.

    However, I do appreciate BHVR's efforts in trying to rebalance the currently lopsided kill rates. I'm not sure if basekit UB will be the correct soloution, but its good to know that the devs are exploring more unique ideas.

  • Canas
    Canas Member Posts: 1,021

    Rancor is going to be one of the worst perks in the game if this update really goes through. Merely exposing your obsession while gaining aura reading for measly 5 seconds is insufficient. NOED is superior in every way since it exposes the entire survivor team. Either give it back its mori ability or add permanent aura reading to the permanent exposure.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,082

    So if two survivors are off a generator, what do you do? Is that the question?

  • Belzher
    Belzher Member Posts: 466

    What if the killer just waits for you to get up and down you literally after that and keeps repeating the cycle?

  • SpaghettiVase
    SpaghettiVase Member Posts: 341

    Oh no two whole survivors not doing gens. Its not like survivors can solo a gen in 45 seconds or anything…

  • DirtyCamping
    DirtyCamping Member Posts: 5

    Kinda meh that I never got to use soul guard till now since it never appeared in the shrine since release.

    Might be a less interesting perk after the change if it doesnt get a buff or smth

  • GrimoireWeiss
    GrimoireWeiss Member Posts: 1,452

    The self pickup should only be available if at least 2 survivors are slugged. If it goes live as it is a survivor can go down at a pallet with a teammate nearby and it's a lose-lose situation. If you slug to go for the saver the downed survivor just gets up, and if you pick up it's a free pallet save.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    Let's see, Off the Record because tunneling is still very much a thing. Dead Hard for a second chance in chase. Reassurance because camping is still very much a thing. That leaves one perk slot. Do they choose a perk for healing, or do they choose UB?

    There has to be some give and take. If killers get A, and survivors don't get B, that's going to lead to killers slugging en-masse and justifying it as playing efficiently, the team being bad, or the survivors not running perk XYZ. Either everyone gets nothing, and I very much doubt BHVR will throw away their finisher mori system, or both sides get something.

    Should the basekit UB be 45 seconds? Arguably, it's a little low and should be 60 seconds. Should UB be changed? Yes. Instead of increasing recovery speed, it should let you pick yourself back up as soon as you're fully recovered, which is around 30ish seconds.

  • ScottJund
    ScottJund Member Posts: 1,118

    I think the only out-of-tune thing with this update is Unbreakable. It shouldn't be an infinite 22 second recovery perk. It should retain its current benefits but only allow you to pick yourself up at 22 seconds once per match, like it currently does.

  • lauraa
    lauraa Member Posts: 3,195

    Was it really asking too much to get this mori rework without gutting DH and rancor?

  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 12,871

    They choose UB and bring a medkit. :)

    I don't disagree that there should be some give. I simply worry that this is too much give, especially for SWF.

    "Instead of increasing recovery speed, it should let you pick yourself back up as soon as you're fully recovered, which is around 30ish seconds."

    What? That's what basekit UB does now, except it's 45 seconds. What you're proposing is that UB still increase recovery speed, but less so than what will be in the PTB.

  • FreakPrince
    FreakPrince Member Posts: 526
    edited September 2022

    Let me see if I got it right: if I use unbreakable, I'll be able to fully recover within 22 seconds, but I'll only be able to pick myself up after 45 seconds?

    It'll only be useful with SWFs.

  • badrepo
    badrepo Member Posts: 93

    So you didn’t read the notes, and are just crying to cry. If you slug all 4 you win the game automatically now.

  • Tsela
    Tsela Member Posts: 524

    in each circumstance where you can reach the next survivor in a short time.

  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 12,871

    Assuming both cases, if you hook, you have three Survivors busy (one being chased, one on the hook, one going for the rescue). If you slug, you have two Survivors busy (one being chased, one being slugged until they get back up by themself). How is the slug leading to more time bought?

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    It takes survivors 30.4 seconds to reach 95% recovery. I'm not sure how the new system is going to work. There was no mention of the base recovery speed being slowed to account for this in the developer update.

  • FriendlyKiller
    FriendlyKiller Member Posts: 337

    What if I, as a killer main, don't want that "reward"? Because honestly it sounds boring as #########. No more game clinching kobes into a narrow escape? No more Adrenaline-fueled mad dashes for the exit gate either? I honestly don't know what they were thinking. How many of us got into this game in the first place because we saw an awesome moment like that on YouTube or something?

    That time you managed to hide your Devour:Hope until you got 5 stacks(surprise!)? Gone.

    Soulguard, grab your dead teammates key and escape through the hatch while the killer patrols the gates with Noed? Never again buddy.

    Get ready for the same match, every match. With ever so slight variations.

    Isn't balance fun!?!? Let's give the entire game the Hillbilly treatment!

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,541

    i mean, i do agree with bhvrs sentiment its dumb they made all these mori animations for them never to be used in the base game. You need a perk or offering for it. So adding this actually makes the mori a base part of the game that you can get in any match. And i personally like that. But thats just my opinion.

  • FriendlyKiller
    FriendlyKiller Member Posts: 337

    You can no longer chose who you mori however. It's going to be the last survivor every game like it or not. That just sounds so boring.

  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 12,871

    The new system makes it so Survivors can stand back up after 45 seconds without any need for perks. Either the recovery speed will be slowed to account for this, or you will simply be stuck at 95% until 45 seconds have passed. The end result in practice is pretty similar.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    Garbage change, this pretty much only leaves me with solo survivor for my play options.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,815

    And if one person has unbreakable, you have 22.5 seconds to down 3 of them or the first one gets back up. If they don't have that or any of the other perks that can affect it, you have 45 seconds.

    So basically much less impact on a killer like nurse using the massive snowball tools like starstruck or infectous still, which is arguibly the most common cause of 4 man slugs.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    I'm assuming it'll be the latter. There's not much that can really be done with UB as a perk outside of reworking it entirely, but basekit UB is absolutely necessary to prevent slugging en-masse.