to all people saying "nurse basekit is fine"
Comments
-
######### are you talking about
4 -
######### are you talking about
0 -
@ArecBalrin "Looping was an exploit that the devs weren't even aware of"
No it's not an exploit. It's a dynamic. In other words, it's the result of multiple mechanics working in tandem. In this case, pallets/windows and character movement speeds. Collision factors in too. But it is not an exploit.
What the devs did was tweak the mechanics in order to balance the dynamic of looping. Previously, you could loop forever. Then devs made changes so that looping would be finite. Then they made further changes to make pallets and windows fair to both sides. Next we are getting changes to make the stronger loops weaker but provide more of them, resulting in even more balanced gameplay for either side.
You make it sound like survivors said "jump" and the devs said "how high?". That's not at all the case. Players DISCOVERED the dynamic of looping. It was deemed too strong, but unless you want to completely change core mechanics it will always be an inherent part of the game. Therefore the most reasonable solution is to change the mechanics until that dynamic is fixed.
I went to school and studied game design dude. What you think of as "survivors made this happen" is completely false. Survivors merely discovered how the mechanics interact with each other, then the devs made changes to make it better for both sides. If they really REALLY catered to survivors as you claim, they would have left infinites as they are. They would have left pallet vacuums and fast vaults as they are. But they aren't doing that.
You also don't speak for the devs. Whatever imaginary scenario you came up with in your head of what they do behind the scenes or how they make decisions is just plain wrong. But whatever, believe in some fantasy if you really want to.
3 -
This debate has already been done and those on the other side of it from me chose double-standards. Killers have had 'dynamic' use of multiple mechanics working in tandem labelled as 'exploits' which justified intervention from the devs and the threat of bans. The exact same standards do not apply to survivors when they loop or body-block; they get different ones.
The only difference between looping 'forever' and looping with a pallet-crutch is nothing, in practice. Looping forever only existed on-paper, or else someone somewhere would still be looping. The issue was not that it could last indefinitely, but that it could last the entire match: something which pallet-looping exactly replicates.
I've explained to you in summary what happened. I haven't made it 'sound like' anything. If you want more detail I can provide it, but my summurising has been accurate and not embellished in the slightest.
You are of course, still talking about a different subject to the one I pulled you up on: that of the misrepresentation of the game's post-release development. It can not at all be characterised as playstyles existing now simply because players learned them; survivors actively lobbied for the one never-changing playstyle which they prefer and the devs have for the most part given them everything they asked for. Not only that, but they gave them it usually in the specific form that they asked for.
The closest killers have ever got to getting this is when hatch-closing was introduced, but the devs couldn't give us it like that: they only put it in the live-build alongside removing the whole point why we had been requesting it in the first place. Now survivors are getting free unearned escapes and still hold games hostage.
4 -
Did this mad lad just compare body blocking to an exploit
7 -
Don't give me opinions I don't have and haven't expressed just because you can't deal with the ones I have.
0 -
What? I'm arguing his point that Nurse is balanced because she's hard to use. Making something hard to use is irrelevant to its balance. People will eventually learn to use it, then all you have left is what the killer can actually do.
Also what VODs are you talking about? I would love to see a bunch of evidence of godly Nurses getting destroyed.
6 -
@ArecBalrin "This debate has already been done and those on the other side of it from me chose double-standards. Killers have had 'dynamic' use of multiple mechanics working in tandem labelled as 'exploits' which justified intervention from the devs and the threat of bans. The exact same standards do not apply to survivors when they loop or body-block; they get different ones."
Because looping and body blocking are not exploits. If a survivor body blocks the killer, the killer can just hit them. If a killer body blocks a survivor, there is literally nothing they can do. If done in a corner, the survivor is effectively trapped in the game forever unless they DC. The fact that each side has different mechanics is why this is treated differently.
As for looping, you even said yourself the devs labeled infinites as EXPLOITING and then changed it so it doesn't exist. And yes there is a huge difference between an infinite and a finite loop. How you think they are the same is baffling honestly.
It just sounds like you are a pissed off killer main that only sees the changes to killers as negative and ones to survivors as positive. The fact you have this grudge against looping, which is the basis of the game even from the beginning, shows how little you actually understand the game. Like explain to me what you would want survivors to do? Explain to me how you would make it so that you can't waste a killers time by running in a circle. You can't, not unless you outright remove pallets and windows. Oh you would change the collision boxes? All that does is shorten the loops, it doesn't get rid of it.
Also there is nothing "misrepresented" about the game's post release development. Changes have been made on BOTH sides to balance the game. You bring up hatch closing, well the original mechanic wasn't good enough. It was too oppressive, probably because it just meant FREE KILL for killers. And it was, to say anything else is just biased. So the devs went and came up with EGC, which is arguably a more fair solution (though one that still favors killers). DS changes took a while too, and the end result is one that made it way WAY better for killers (which if you still have a problem with DS then I really have nothing else to say to you).
"Free unearned escapes" like really dude? REALLY?? You need to 4k that bad every game? You can close the hatch, so to say survivors still take the game hostage is just a lie. They sort of can when there are more than 1 of them and they just refuse to do gens, but again that's just a flaw in the design. Eventually that will get fixed too I'm sure.
4 -
@ScottJund I’m not a pc player so I’ll stay vague on the Nurse topic but I’d like to see you get some people in kyf to see if a good nurse has counter play.
0 -
You're ducking and diving.
Body-blocking is arguably not an exploit because the killer can do something about it; it doesn't matter what that something is, they can do it. By the same standards, survivors have had body-blocking by the killer in regards hook-interactions labelled and dealt with as a malicious exploit. The standards being applied to different sides, are different. It was explained at the time and repeatedly ever since how these things are directly equivalent, but the devs stand by their double-standards, as do survivors.
The devs applied the reasoning that a killer can hold the game hostage. This is not what they were doing though when face-camping at a hook though; it had the same viable counter as normal camping, yet was included in the explanation given for how they were(inconsistently) defining exploits that could incur punishments. Now that EGC exists, the killer can't actually hold the game hostage indefinitely whilst the clock is ticking, yet the streamer Vinc3Vega reported someone for exactly this last month, using his own back-channel rather than the in-game system. He seemed very certain it was the case and has an excellent working relationship with BHVR.
I did not say the devs labelled infinites as exploits: they were being told for weeks and kept making excuses to do nothing. They eventually did because they were forced to; it was absurd. When they finally realised why looping itself around anything was a problem, they are obvlivious to the differences in collision and apparently willfully so. They had pulled up a picture on livestream of Meg and the Trapper, with the wire-frame for the collision-capsule revealed for comparison, even though they could have looked at the circumference values for an accurate telling; they tried to stay ambigious about it.
"You bring up hatch closing, well the original mechanic wasn't good enough. It was too oppressive, probably because it just meant FREE KILL for killers. And it was, to say anything else is just biased."
And I leave you with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
0 -
i was waiting for this so long
tyvmmm scott i love you so much i would like to see 4 ppl here which are like "LOL NURSE IS FINE JUST HIDE!!11" getting destroyed over and over by scott but apparently the ppl are like "Lol. I suck as Survivor, mate. But that's me being bad, not any Killer being OP." yeah maybe you shouldnt talk to this topic then ..
5 -
Calling him a "pissed off killer main" is the double standards he is talking about all along. Everyone here that hates Nurse Sally are pissed off their usual 'loop here until he throws the pallet, then run to another loop' does not work on a particular killer.
And survivors really need to loop and escape every single game? A person would think diversity is a good thing but not in DBD apparently. Gotta play every match exactly the same way lol
0 -
I like your name and profile pic combined with this thread.
I agree though, I legit wonder at what point the devs will address it. Or if they just won't because they're afraid of the backlash.
2 -
Okay and what about some of the best Nurse players in the game saying she also needs a nerf?
4 -
We need to see a really pro nurse against other pro survivors so that we can (finally) settle this.
0 -
More than one or two games also.
0 -
I don't get why people do this; make an appeal to authority and expect it means the point has extra value because of it? If 'blah-blah one of the best Nurse players' and 'whosit studied game design', that makes the person advancing the argument by adopting their position take on the same burden and they just can't.
People who claim expertise for themselves or from others are not just taken at their word because of it; they actually have a higher standard expected of them. I expect them to be able to present better arguments first of all.
1 -
They're not taken at their word "just because of it" they're taken at their word because they've won like 6000 Nurse games in a row. These people happen to be streamers because by golly would you look at that they have documented proof of the things being discussed.
5 -
"By the same standards, survivors have had body-blocking by the killer in regards hook-interactions labelled and dealt with as a malicious exploit. "
Because survivors could literally not do anything about that. Hostage has nothing to do with this situation. Like you seriously think it's okay for a killer to just stand at a hook and make it impossible to save? Dude that's biased if I've ever seen it.
"yet the streamer Vinc3Vega reported someone for exactly this last month"
Does not make it an actual exploit. SMH again REALLY you use this as an argument?
"they were being told for weeks and kept making excuses to do nothing"
I highly doubt this was the case. It just proves how little you understand about game development. Solutions don't come overnight. Which is why both EGC and DS took so long. But then look at something like MOM. Changes in like 2 months. Tell me again how they say "how high" when survivors ask for stuff. I'll wait.
"And I leave you with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance"
You clearly don't understand what this actually means. If you don't think closing the hatch is a free kill then you are again just killer biased. Not to mention, you got the ability to close hatch it's just part of a bigger mechanic now. One that STILL favors killers.
4 -
That's just rephrasing the same thing I was criticising.
I expect someone who has won thousands of games with the Nurse to be able to articulate why they think anything about the Nurse. This is why some normal adults are dumber than a lot of normal children: the adults can't remember most of the days of their lives, so having more of them doesn't help them against kids who can.
An expert is listened to because they can give a superior explanation on their subject of expertise, not simply because they're an expert.
0 -
I'm gonna be honest I'm not sure what we're debating about.
4 -
@ScottJund I’ve read his comment carefully and I believe he wants a pro nurse to explain in detail why she needs changes. (I think)
0 -
Getting frustrating now: yes they could. The counter to face-camping was the same as the counter to normal hook-camping. Survivors refused to do it, as usual.
The devs had tried interfering with hook-camping but the brick-wall of reality hit them with the PTB for it. With face-camping they concocted a set of standards and then selectively-applied them, ignoring that face-camping was in it's overall effect on the match no different to hook-camping. Survivors could have just done the damn gens, as they were advised to by killers. You'll notice killers give survivors much more sincere and less self-serving advice than survivors do for us.
Also, EGC did not take long: they literally came up with it within a few weeks after the PTB for hatch-closing. They did not want to give killers what we had expressly and notably requested without a sting in the tail.
You've derailed enough. The game as it is now has not come about by players learning to develop the way it is played: it is played this way because one side persistently and successfully lobbied for it. If you need any specific clarification(rather than trying to gish gallop me), I can provide it.
0 -
You’re seeing things through a biased eye if you think survivor mains, like me, never call killer things underpowered. Heck, I’ve even called ruin underpowered.
0 -
I feel like I've already explained it. She ignores all high level chase mechanics that the foundation of the game is based on. You literally don't need to explain it any further. All high level gameplay is looping and mindgaming at various tiles. Nurse doesn't care about the thing that gives DBD any depth whatsoever.
Mention stealth pls. I dare someone.
8 -
But stealthI’ll admit, stealth honestly isn’t fully viable since nobody is wasting the killers time effectively.
2 -
This will never ever settle down. As I said before, a god nurse would make good survivors look like rank 21 survivors. Once a chase start, they will go down in a matter of seconds and the tips and tricks mentioned here by the gurus of DBD won't work. So it will always be "she won because survivors played bad".
I have escaped in some matches against some really good nurses, but I am not delusional to say that I have countered her. In fact, I got my *** handed to me every time I got found.
3 -
"Getting frustrating now: yes they could. The counter to face-camping was the same as the counter to normal hook-camping. Survivors refused to do it, as usual."
No you couldn't counter it because you couldn't save the guy. SMH
Doing gens is not a counter when it's literally impossible to make a save.
"Also, EGC did not take long: they literally came up with it within a few weeks after the PTB for hatch-closing. They did not want to give killers what we had expressly and notably requested without a sting in the tail."
Do you understand what iterative design is? Of course not. EGC is the end result of a lot of design and testing, part of which was the hatch close PTB.
"You've derailed enough."
I'm not the one sitting here making ridiculous claims that the devs just do whatever survivors want, have some sort of imaginary double standard for killers, or complains about what are the core dynamics of the game.
4 -
In fact, I usually get a free chainsaw against stealth players if they don’t have sprint burst.
0 -
I feel like even if the best Nurse ever gets stomped by the best survivors, she's still a problem that should be addressed.
Ignoring every mechanic at base is an awful power concept, and balancing in general can only get way better if she were to be made SOMEWHAT more like other killers. Pretty hard to do general buffs and nerfs to base mechanics when the Nurse exists.
5 -
The counter to face-camping was the exact same counter to hook-camping. This has been discussed for 3 years, you can not possibly have missed it unless you have gone out of your way to do so, in which case you are in no position to be throwing around accusations of bias.
0 -
Stealth. There's perks in the game for it too. It's a game mechanic too :)
0 -
Honestly just putting my two cents in if they can some how make it where normal killers aren't 4 tryhard swf play things i'd say the nurse wouldn't have a reason to be as strong as she is, but i think she is a necessary evil right now until they address maps which i think is the biggest issue as to why some killers can't compare to her.
0 -
I hope your “stealth enjoys my chainsaw.
1 -
Aura perks says hi
Also combine that with Nurses Insane mobility
It's negligible.
Breaking LoS midchase also isn't viable because you leave scratch marks.
How do you expect to stealth?
Use a specific set of perks that at best MIGHT give you one more second in chase?
4 -
If it's unfair for Nurse to blink, it's unfair for you to go so fast!
0 -
I’m leatherface, not billy.;)
1 -
That's not a counter because it's impossible to save the guy. Like the option doesn't even exist. How is this so hard to understand?
3 -
It's not hard to understand: it's just a nakedly bad-faith argument.
I could fill you in, but I think you are entirely aware of the 3 years of discussions that happened and you're goal here is not debate but distraction.
0 -
Oh god, in that case your basement is the most OP thing in the game no lie! Nobody gets out of there alive!
0 -
I don’t camp before endgame D:
0 -
How is me asking these people to KYF even remotely like a "1v1 rust me #########" scenario? That scenario happens when I get wrecked and want a rematch or something, or I've been personally spurned by the person in question. I'm just asking people to show me their alleged counters and so far no one has done it. I wouldn't even be playing the Nurse, I'm not even good at her. I'd get someone who I know to be good at her to do it. How you draw that as an ego challenge when I wouldn't even be involved in the game I have no idea.
8 -
There's nothing bad faith about it. It's physically impossible to make the save. With stuff like BT and DS, making the save isn't always the bad play. All the devs did was make it so the save was an option. There's nothing about that that makes it a double standard.
2 -
Let’s be real here. Every killer should have counter play in chase. I can’t speak for nurse but without Iron Will Spirit is not counterable in chase.
I’ve mained spirit and the “counterplay” didn’t work on me. I’ve also been a PS4 nurse main and “stealth” didn’t work on me.
3 -
You don't need to make the save: the killer has given you free-reign on the generators. The counter to any form of hook-camping, even tunnelling, has a 75% win-rate because those are the odds of any single survivor being the first person hooked and camped. In any game a strategy with a 75% win-rate would need nerfing, it's not just winning but dominating. You of course already know all of this, but you're not debating, just derailing.
Survivors tend not to use the counter because of double-standards. The game and all discussion of it is rife with them. When the survivors are demanding the devs do something about tunnelling or camping, what matters is the unfairness towards that one individual who must be allowed to enjoy the match, to be rescued, who must be empowered so that they're not straight back on the hook afterwards even. They're far less concerned with killers as individuals but that's not the double-standard I'm talking about here, though it is a double-standard.
The double-standard is that whilst they talk about the experience of the individual when they want to take something from the killer, they suddenly start invoking their collective interests and the health of the whole game when protecting something they already have. The health of the whole game, when used as a justification, of course once again excludes the killer, which as one side represents at least half of the game.
1 -
Yep
0 -
So you're mad they took away your ability to literally stand there and do nothing for a kill? That's literally all they did. If you really think that's a double standard then you have a very clear bias toward killer.
Here's another way to look at it... sabotage originally was permanent. Basically that means survivors could make it IMPOSSIBLE to get hook. They change it so hooks would respawn because it was exploitable. So if you think it's okay to make an unhook impossible, then it must be okay to make a hook impossible. If not you are a hypocrite.
2 -
Well done, you've now reached the point where you have to start inventing opinions for me rather than responding to what I've actually said.
The issue is not what, the issue is why; you already know this, but your purpose in replying is not debate.
2 -
Also, they did not remove permanent hook-sabo because it was exploitable. They left it in that state for months and didn't respond to killer complaints with anything but dismissal. They took their time putting hook regeneration into a PTB and then delayed putting it in the live-build, using the excuse of survivors behaviour in that PTB(it was the same one where they had infinite first hook phase and self-sabotaged their own buff by griefing).
What made them do anything was survivors whining about being slugged and dying on the floor, but not before they introduced Bill who had the first perk to allow a survivor to pick themselves up without help, just to give killers a few more weeks of aggravation.
3 -
I could post a video of me 4king rank 1 SWF survivors with Freddy or Leatherface, doesn’t mean these killers are top tier, or that it’s a common occurence.
This thread is cherry picking at its finest.
6
