General Discussions
General Discussions
Slugging is now a dead strat!
Comments
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Twins still has 45s to pickup like everyone else, but I'll be fair and say they more realistically have 30s.
The counter to double locker flashlights is spamming open on one of the two, as the other will run out of juice soon enough.
Impossible to pickup is a fair complaint, but that would still have largely the same effect before and after.
Sabos- see all the counters already listed in this thread by myself and others. Also Survivors stuck on Sabo duty are Survivors not fixing Gens. You will win eventually if you play right. Drop early and often if you have to. Just like Survivors can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of gen progression, returning to the same gen popped 10 times, Killers can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of specifically hooking one Survivor they downed. Understand and adapt. I loved using Tinkerer Pop on Clown on a single gen with 5 gens still remaining. Some players are so dumb they never learn and that is hilarious to me.
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to be fair you're right about sabo on midwich but it's a huge map issue has nothing to do with this update
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So in your extreme example you are worried about the 2 Survivors who dedicated Breakdown, Tenacity, Unbreakable, and Saboteur, and you are trying to hook those 2? You never once entertain the thought you should try to hook the 2 on gens? That sounds like a failing on your part. You don't think about defending 3 gens near basement? You don't think about defending the more center gens so they can't sabo you en-route? It sounds like the failing is entirely on you for being unwilling to think. I don't think anyone should be punished for someone else choosing not to think.
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Sometimes you literally cannot hook. Survivors can use boil over and go to high points which, before this, was only able to be countered by slugging. Also, survivors never adapted, they cried for buffs and have gotten them every update since 6.1.
Pick rate is per individual survivor. It is possible for something to have a somewhat low pick rate, say around 5%, and still show up frequently because there are four survivors per game.
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i think just straight up erasing an entire strategy from the game is a horrible, short-sighted decision made with no consideration whatsoever for how that's going to impact it solely because of a new, shoehorned in mechanic for a feature that was already nerfed to the ground.
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There should never be a scenario where the survivors are immune to everything the killer could possibly do.
And it’s not just one super scenario where everything is combined. This could be Midwich, where sometime half a floor is missing hooks because BHVR still hasn’t fixed that. This could be a corner of the map where someone died, and now survivors want to run their on purpose to bully the killer because it’s a hook deadzone.
Why aren’t any changes being made to nerf the bully survivors that make slugging required? I often need to leave people slugged because I can’t hook them. Why aren’t there any changes to make it more reliable for a killer to hook someone?
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Most survivor bullying is done by abusing oversights in game design, be they specific to perks/addons/items or just general basekit issues. BHVR proves time and time again that these people are far more clever than they are, and constantly lobs in softballs that get taken advantage of and end up either fixed or ignored based on how they internally prioritize the impact. Considering this is how they approach balance, its no wonder that people have zero faith in their approach to fending off hackers.
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So what they can always nerf boil over if it's really that good, in 1500 hours of playtime and half of it playing killer I never had any issue with boil over except maybe once or twice, played against a lot of knock out builds tho, pretty hard to counter in solo q without comms
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Love me some survivors who “just want to have fun” which means either sweating gens or making the killer as miserable as possible. “Just wanna have fun guys smh”
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breaking up strategies that are detrimental to other players is one thing, but they generally need a healthy alternative first. Its the mistake that they keep making and refusing to learn from.
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I'm not saying it's op. I'm saying this change will cause a problem. People who do this, they are actively working on objectives. If you chase them, they are completely safe. While you're chasing them. That's 3 survivors getting free time on gens. If you don't chase them, then that's them getting risk free time working on an objective. Doing a chase is risk vs reward. For boil players who run to hook dead zones, it's all risk and no reward. That's a problem. Either you chase and give the other survivors free gen time, or you don't chase and still have a survivor getting free gen time. If you could chase down and hook or slug the survivor, then you are rewarded with the other survivors having to pull away from gens to save them.
Now, that's not going to be a thing. That's a big problem. Now anyone running the strat will always be giving their team an uncounterable edge - a guaranteed gen progression at any given moment.
It's not a big problem currently because you can just slug them and put pressure, but it will be a HUGE problem if they can simply get themselves up. If you chase them, they find their safety area. No one has to get them if they go down. So, the chase ends up being entirely fruitless, so what do you do? They get a free pass. They are untouchable for the match. You can't chase them.
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Now this is a breath of fresh air. Great update guys, can't wait to see it live :D
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The only reason this change seems to exist is because of the last survivor mori thing instantly ending the game. I say if thats the whole point for this crap then BhVr just dont even bother. I don’t give a rats ass about moris and never have so just dont screw your game health royally because you want moris to be “cinematic” get out of here with that crap.
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Okay TBH today isn't my day. I had a really rough game from a bully squad because I did a daily with a Killer I never play - and some personal stuff - but that's to say I may have overreacted a bit. I just think it'll backfire immensely. Killers are still in a good spot. But for how long idk.
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there's a slight problem. DS is 60 seconds, but being pick-up is 45 seconds. With DS+Soulguard, you created lose/lose situation for the killer where the killer cannot slug to avoid decisive strike and the killer cannot camp bodies because soul guard grants endurance when being picked up on the ground. Cases where a sabotage on hooks force the killer to slug but the unbreakable punishes the killer for the only play available to them.
Removing slugging entirely from the game heavily simplifies the game and removes variance from the trial. I like how every killer is unique and has different strength's. Killers like Twins have long walking time between downing a survivor and hooking them so their play-style of slugging is punished. Oni is kicked out of his ability when picking up a survivor and his power has some incentives to slug. Sadako has niche play-style in slugging. Slugging for map pressure is entirely gone and the decision to hook becomes binary decision.
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Back to not playing killer ever once that patch is live. Until they realize how stupid this is and change it again. Every time I think I can come back to this game after quitting it's barely even a whole patch and they drive people away again smdh. So tired of trying to play fair and getting screwed anyway. Just going back to face camping with instadown powers again because they clearly hate killers. Once decent buff for ten more seconds on gens and survivors ended up with basekit BT. Now they get unbreakable too. Next patch it'll be basekit pre-nerd Decisive and eventually killers are just deleted from the game altogether lmao
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Right? I probably see 1 boil over at every 5 matches
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Survivors immune - They still have the 4 minute bleedout timer, they can still be injured, they can still be downed. They are never immune.
Midwich is notoriously Killer sided, so this one sabo interaction is one of the few times the map is made more even. That is far from an issue since you now can quickly down the sabo Surv. The corner map lack of hook is a lack of foresight on the Killer's part. I always death hook Survivors where I want to burn a hook. That is the case of macro gameplay failing on the Killer's part. If the Survs doing gens can always run back to this alleged deadzone corner they are playing a losing game of attrition. You can also injure without downing them, forcing them to group up and heal, or preventing them from using the speedboost to W back into the corner.
There may need to be some changes to this such as my recommendation to instead have 30s to 95%, then 30s more to 95->100%, but the hoops you needed to jump through to prevent this alleged bully abuse are far far far less common than the current excessive slugging abuse this change is meant to curtail. Even with your examples I provided a counter to each of them. It was your unwillingness to try those solutions or even acknowledge their existence that is causing you to feel "bullied" when they happen. Slugging was never required for an excess of 45s. I have provided numerous counters to each scenario I have read. If people are unwilling to learn I cannot force feed them the knowledge they seek. In those cases it appears they are arguing in bad faith and merely want to keep excessive slugging abuse cases, as opposed to legitimately seeking a counter.
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"The finisher mori ends the trial as soon as the last man standing is downed. That means no DS, no 4% when all hope at being rescued is lost, no chance at wiggling free."
You're basically describing the benefits to the yellow Mori, the aforementioned meme offering. The only upgrade with this basekit change compared to the previous yellow Mori is that it will also trigger if all remaining players are slugged and/or hooked. In practice, this will usually only come up when there are only two people left.
Also, it's 45 seconds without the new Unbreakable. 22.5 seconds with the new Unbreakable.
I would argue basekit Unbreakable is a net nerf to Killer, at least indirectly, since all Survivors get it at base kit, which means all Survivors get their choice of four perks plus Unbreakable.
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The only way this change is okay is if killers become immune to blinds and stuns when picking up or carrying survivors.
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It isn't just boil over that will be a problem, it is also being unable to slug survivors under pallets and who have friends waiting for flashlight saves when they are in the open. These changes introduce a lot of problems that BHVR clearly hasn't thought about.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
They're willing to ruin multiple layers of balance because of an idea someone had which wasn't even remotely fleshed out to fit within the current rules of the game. Instead of seeing that as a bad idea like most devs would, they would rather change entire aspects of the game to try to make it fit. In a game that has outgrown its initial scope probably 4 years ago.
Feature Bloat is a real phenomena in game development, where you feel the need to add in features that don't fit with the rest of the game. Its one of the most important aspects of organization and cohesion between existing mechanics, and part of why a lot of ideas end up on cutting room floors. I'm not saying that its not a reason, but if it is, they need to do some reevaluating on their priorities ASAGDP. Not even addressing the obvious hacking elephant in the room that continues to be ignored, of course.
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I get it and I also don't get it. Slugging is incredibly unfun for playing survivor. 2-3 minutes of doing nothing is not enjoyable so it makes sense that they want to stop this. On the other hand this is incredibly powerful in the hands of decent players. Anyone who has extensively played killer knows how much a single unbreakable can change a game. I think the issue of camping is a much bigger deal personally. I find it interesting that they're willing to give basekit unbreakable but not some sort of basekit mechanic for facecamping.
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That still leaves the problem of being unable to slug when survivors are under pallets or have a friend waiting with a flashlight while they are in the open. BHVR hasn't thought this update through and it will only make SWF even more powerful, which is not something we need.
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quick correction they have technically acknowledged the hacker situation! They asked a question in the player survey to gauge how frustrated players are when they encounter a hacker…i feel like bhvr is really gonna come out and say “ha we were the hackers the whole time” and just shut the game down
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This is an excellent change and another significant step towards modernizing mechanics left over from a very different era of DbD.
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No, I disagree. BT basekit did not make tunneling a dead strategy, so I am betting slugging will still be useable if this change goes through. I am not a fan of giving survivors more basekit tools to deal with killer strategies, but I will have to wait and see how it fans out. Slugged survivors are usually picked up by teammates in under or around 45 seconds anyways so in my mind, this will only make a difference in 4-man-slug attempts.
However, I do appreciate BHVR's efforts in trying to rebalance the currently lopsided kill rates. I'm not sure if basekit UB will be the correct soloution, but its good to know that the devs are exploring more unique ideas.
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Rancor is going to be one of the worst perks in the game if this update really goes through. Merely exposing your obsession while gaining aura reading for measly 5 seconds is insufficient. NOED is superior in every way since it exposes the entire survivor team. Either give it back its mori ability or add permanent aura reading to the permanent exposure.
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So if two survivors are off a generator, what do you do? Is that the question?
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What if the killer just waits for you to get up and down you literally after that and keeps repeating the cycle?
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Oh no two whole survivors not doing gens. Its not like survivors can solo a gen in 45 seconds or anything…
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Kinda meh that I never got to use soul guard till now since it never appeared in the shrine since release.
Might be a less interesting perk after the change if it doesnt get a buff or smth
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The self pickup should only be available if at least 2 survivors are slugged. If it goes live as it is a survivor can go down at a pallet with a teammate nearby and it's a lose-lose situation. If you slug to go for the saver the downed survivor just gets up, and if you pick up it's a free pallet save.
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Let's see, Off the Record because tunneling is still very much a thing. Dead Hard for a second chance in chase. Reassurance because camping is still very much a thing. That leaves one perk slot. Do they choose a perk for healing, or do they choose UB?
There has to be some give and take. If killers get A, and survivors don't get B, that's going to lead to killers slugging en-masse and justifying it as playing efficiently, the team being bad, or the survivors not running perk XYZ. Either everyone gets nothing, and I very much doubt BHVR will throw away their finisher mori system, or both sides get something.
Should the basekit UB be 45 seconds? Arguably, it's a little low and should be 60 seconds. Should UB be changed? Yes. Instead of increasing recovery speed, it should let you pick yourself back up as soon as you're fully recovered, which is around 30ish seconds.
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I think the only out-of-tune thing with this update is Unbreakable. It shouldn't be an infinite 22 second recovery perk. It should retain its current benefits but only allow you to pick yourself up at 22 seconds once per match, like it currently does.
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Was it really asking too much to get this mori rework without gutting DH and rancor?
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They choose UB and bring a medkit. :)
I don't disagree that there should be some give. I simply worry that this is too much give, especially for SWF.
"Instead of increasing recovery speed, it should let you pick yourself back up as soon as you're fully recovered, which is around 30ish seconds."
What? That's what basekit UB does now, except it's 45 seconds. What you're proposing is that UB still increase recovery speed, but less so than what will be in the PTB.
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Let me see if I got it right: if I use unbreakable, I'll be able to fully recover within 22 seconds, but I'll only be able to pick myself up after 45 seconds?
It'll only be useful with SWFs.
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So you didn’t read the notes, and are just crying to cry. If you slug all 4 you win the game automatically now.
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in each circumstance where you can reach the next survivor in a short time.
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Assuming both cases, if you hook, you have three Survivors busy (one being chased, one on the hook, one going for the rescue). If you slug, you have two Survivors busy (one being chased, one being slugged until they get back up by themself). How is the slug leading to more time bought?
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It takes survivors 30.4 seconds to reach 95% recovery. I'm not sure how the new system is going to work. There was no mention of the base recovery speed being slowed to account for this in the developer update.
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What if I, as a killer main, don't want that "reward"? Because honestly it sounds boring as #########. No more game clinching kobes into a narrow escape? No more Adrenaline-fueled mad dashes for the exit gate either? I honestly don't know what they were thinking. How many of us got into this game in the first place because we saw an awesome moment like that on YouTube or something?
That time you managed to hide your Devour:Hope until you got 5 stacks(surprise!)? Gone.
Soulguard, grab your dead teammates key and escape through the hatch while the killer patrols the gates with Noed? Never again buddy.
Get ready for the same match, every match. With ever so slight variations.
Isn't balance fun!?!? Let's give the entire game the Hillbilly treatment!
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i mean, i do agree with bhvrs sentiment its dumb they made all these mori animations for them never to be used in the base game. You need a perk or offering for it. So adding this actually makes the mori a base part of the game that you can get in any match. And i personally like that. But thats just my opinion.
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You can no longer chose who you mori however. It's going to be the last survivor every game like it or not. That just sounds so boring.
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The new system makes it so Survivors can stand back up after 45 seconds without any need for perks. Either the recovery speed will be slowed to account for this, or you will simply be stuck at 95% until 45 seconds have passed. The end result in practice is pretty similar.
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Garbage change, this pretty much only leaves me with solo survivor for my play options.
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And if one person has unbreakable, you have 22.5 seconds to down 3 of them or the first one gets back up. If they don't have that or any of the other perks that can affect it, you have 45 seconds.
So basically much less impact on a killer like nurse using the massive snowball tools like starstruck or infectous still, which is arguibly the most common cause of 4 man slugs.
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I'm assuming it'll be the latter. There's not much that can really be done with UB as a perk outside of reworking it entirely, but basekit UB is absolutely necessary to prevent slugging en-masse.
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