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Chaos Shuffle is a good social experiment on the need for some base kit anti-tunnel features
Comments
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Not really. The killer loses more time than the survivors which just gives them more time to do gens. So it'll just make the problem worse.
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Literally changes nothing. He said he doesn't believe people who say it and asked for proof. People even streamed for him to watch it and there was zero tunneling in it at all.
Everything I say is weird to you for some reason. And its weird of you to say I'm propping up a CC when all I'm doing is pointing to a study he did on all of us, YOU included because he made the poll on these forums. Besides my own experience and watching videos of people claiming to be tunneled have extensively proven people either A. Are lying. Or B. Have no clue what tunneling actually is.
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Never said he was. I don't like his content and I don't agree with 90% of his takes. But he publicly called everyone out, YOU included and is asking for proof. You can send him a stream with evidence and he will watch all of it to see if it's true. The offer is still on the table.
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It’s hilarious to me when people like him disingenuously ask for “proof” for stuff like this because they’re obviously just sea lioning. Let’s break this down.
In order to provide legit proof of excessive tunneling that means you have to show ie record multiple matches. It’s not JUST one match. It’s multiple matches over longer periods of time. That’s how we get statistics and are able to quantify things. So let’s say I tell someone “In 20 matches I’ve played I got tunneled out in 15.” So for someone like Scott that means he wants me to record, upload and give him the links to 20 full matches. Each match typically lasts about 10-15 minutes on average. If I’m tunneled out at 5 gens that’s maybe a 3-4 minute video EXCEPT we still wanna show the entirety of the match so he can’t say “We’ll that was just you, he didn’t tunnel anyone else so maybe you just were toxic!” so we show the full match for the full view. Also maybe im not sound first so I wanna show the full match to show that I was the 2nd or 3rd person tunneled. So If I’m showing 20 matches at 10-15 minutes per match, that’s a LOT of recording and upload time that I have to spend to show someone, which could be even longer if I don’t have super fast internet.
Then let’s say I show it to him and he comes back with “Well how do I know this was 20 consecutive matches?!” You could have played 50-60 matches and this is all spread out diluting your stats so how do I know this is what you say it is?” Then you’re in the position of what? Having to somehow prove that these matches were all played consecutively? How would you go about doing that?
So let’s say you make it easier on yourself and say “Okay I’ll show you 5 matches instead” and you show 5 matches and you got tunneled in 3-4. Then he can say “Okay but that’s only 5 matches! That doesn’t show that you’re being overwhelmingly tunneled!”
In order to prove to him what he wants would legitimately take way more time, effort and resources than one person can reasonably be expected to exert and he’s expecting multiple multiple people to do this?
Thats how sea lioning works. Either proving to someone what they want is too burdensome and time consuming so you just don’t do it, or you do it and they move goal posts constantly and use that to “disprove” what you’re saying. I’m even willing to bet most people declined to show him proof because they already recognized this and it wasn’t worth it to them. Then he gets to say he “won” because “no one showed me proof!”
The fallacies are so many in why this dudes “study” is bogus and the fact that anyone sees him as a credible source as far as whether or not tunneling really happens is beyond laughable to me.
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It also shows how fast gens go without meta perks to slow them down. The games too reliant on perks.
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He did a poll on these forums and got everyone's input. Then he asked people to stream for 8 hours and make timestamps for where they go tunneled. He went through every single stream they sent and where they said they were tunneled. And they were all wrong, not a single person was tunneled more than 1 or 2 matches out of 8 hours.
Send him your proof if you have it. Like I said I never see it either so the burden of evidence is on the people making the claim to prove it.
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This forum is a tiny compilation of all of DBD gamers. Where else did he do polls at? Plus how many responses did he get in his poll? What about the people who don’t stream? How many actual participants did he get? How many of the people who replied to his poll saying they were tunneled were the actual people Lagos streamed him proof? Also what’s his definition of tunneling and why does he get to decide what constitutes tunneling and what doesn’t?
See what’s wrong with his approach as an actual scientific and or statistical analysis?3 -
I also really need people to stop using “I don’t see it so it doesn’t happen” as “proof” of something not happening. Huge logical fallacy there
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I believe he said in the video it was around 500 people. And he just did reddit and the forums. He said anybody could stream and you didn't have to talk or anything. It's easy to stream gameplay without a face cam and just the game so anyone could do it. Only 2 people actually sent him vods. I have no clue if the people who sent him the vods claimed they were being tunneled on the poll but they did say they get tunneled all the time.
As for the definition of tunneling it's very obvious and universally agreed on that the most common form of tunneling that people complain about is 3 hook tunneling and getting someone out as early as possible. So that's the definition he went with.
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It's a flashlight. If you bring Lightborn, they are literally not able to flashlight save.
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He never differentiated between matches where the player gets tunneled or the other Survivors get tunneled.
That was literally my first huge issue with it. It asked for how often YOU get tunneled, not how often you SEE tunneling. I get tunneled, probably, more often because I'm P100 and bad. I still only get tunneled maybe in 1/5 games. Maybe. I SEE tunneling more frequently than that though.
Likewise, yes, your takes usually remind me of a less experienced me.
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Again it’s not that simple for everyone to stream depending on their computer system or their internet. Thats a variable that needs to be accounted for. Based on what you’re saying it appears again that he has no control group whatsoever and variables weee not accounted for.
And there is no universally agreed upon definition of tunneling which is why what he sees as tunneling should be clearly stated. His “study” does not pass muster.
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But that doesn't change the fact that in his video he said he almost never got tunneled and neither did any of his teammates and that goes for the people that sent him "evidence" So while yess the poll maybe slightly skewed, its far easier to remember if YOU got tunneled vs a teammate.
It might be because your P100 because for some reason people still seem to think that has any indicator of skill. And my takes are only strange to you because you are clearly a survivor main and I am clearly a killer main.
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Regardless it's the closest we've got to real evidence. And while yes a killer chasing someone for 5 gens and not getting them at the end is considered tunneling. Not a single person would complain about it. They would record it and post it on YouTube. Like I said people claim to get tunneled 24/7 but I almost never see it. He never sees it and all of the content creators I watch I almost never see it in their videos unless its specifically titled that way.
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Also the fact that hundreds of people allegedly said they were tunneled and only 2 people sent him VODS is an issue that doesn’t help his case. You cannot say whether tunneling does or doesn’t happen with only two matches and it’s a logical fallacy to say “No one sent me evidence so therefore evidence doesn’t exist” when the burden for providing evidence is high and he did nothing to help facilitate making it easier. It’s not easy for anyone to simply stream and it’s certainly not easy to expect hundreds of people to take 8 hours out of their day to stream to prove tunneling to some random person online. I imagine most of those people probably thought “screw that dude I don’t have time for that.”
The problem is, he seems to take that “See they didn’t wanna prove it because they can’t!” And that’s not how that works.
What he SHOULD have done was instead of simply doing a poll (easy to reply to) and then asking people to show up and stream for 8 hours (not easy to do) he should have asked for people to volunteer for a study. As people to sign up, commit to an 8 hour stream and make sure he had..let’s say.. a minimum of 50-100 gamers willing and able to do this. This is how polling work, you get a small sample size. Then have all those people do it and have him go through the results with a group of people who all vote “was his or was this not tunneling?” that way you have a non-bias group deciding on it as opposed to just his lone personal opinion on tunneling seeing as how he already has a bias that tunneling doesn’t happen.
That’s called a control group that accounts for variables and removes personal bias to come up with actual data. He did none of this and the conclusion he came to was a simple logical fallacy of “No one (2 people) showed me proof so it doesn’t happen!”
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No it’s not. It’s nowhere NEAR real evidence and I’d bet that BHVR has way better analysis and study on this than he does because they would actually set up an actual non-biased study and not what this guy did. 🤣🤣
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And once again and lastly since I’m done with this convo. You not seeing it and him claiming to not see it does not mean it doesn’t happen and his fake study full of errors and fallacy doesn’t negate that. Have a good day.
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That's like saying, "Well, BHVR hasn't given us stats on this new patch, so these ten games where I got ten 4K's means that Killer is OP."
It just doesn't work like that.
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Exactly. And DBD has hundreds of thousands of players. But I’m sure this guy with his obvious bias going into it only watching two people stream and him personally deciding the definition of tunneling, is an obvious fact based study.
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Gonna have to agree with this basekit lightborn is just deleting flashlights for killer side it would have to be something more QoL like Basekit Fireup or brutal strength
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@ScottJund's ears must be burning
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in VHS rip that game Mid match a little capture the zone appeared whoever got it would get Aura reading for like 60 seconds maybe dbd could try something like that? Killers could get Grim embrace and survivors Aura reading
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I would say like basekit Bamboozle block after a vault for 5 seconds and Brutal?
That'd be about equivalent to a 3 second DS basekit, maybe a little stronger.
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An item that ONE OF FOUR survivor can steal from the SINGLE killer? Sounds balanced 😂
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I'm down to just the escape challenge left. Every single game has been a slug for 4K, or tunnel, or what have you. These killers are playing like the entity will reach out of the computer and kill them if they let a single survivor escape, ever.
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Right, because it'd presumably be harder for a killer to get it from a survivor than the other way around. Clearly this hypothetical concept with no real structure or elaboration should be dismissed entirely because you pointed out that this is an asyemetrical game. Thanks for the input.
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but if it’s only relevant to the chaos shuffle game mode then adding base kit mechanics that mimic perks that you don’t have due to the new game mode, defeats the purpose of the new game mode anyway.
If you want those perks play the base game.
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In normal matches, I agree that tunnelling isn’t as common as it is made out to be. However in terms of Chaos Shuffle, it is VERY common.
I get tunnelled maybe once every 10 games outside of this modifier, however so far someone’s been hard tunnelled every game I’ve played of Chaos Shuffle
And I think that both of these situations kind of highlight the issue which is that the only thing stopping tunnelling is the threat of DS. Which leads to the issue that the only way to actually stop tunnelling is behind a pay wall. And it’s why tunnelling is so common in Chaos Shuffle because the chance of encountering DS is very slim.
There should be a base kit form of anti-tunnel that gives a similar threat that DS does. It shouldn’t be behind a perk.
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I wouldn't say that it would defeat the new game mode's purpose, by that logic base kit bt would have made the Chaos Shuffle needless years ago when it was added.
Chaos Shuffle is still enjoyable to me even with the tunneling it just kinda sucks when you are playing for fun (no items, playing around with the random perks etc) in a fun mode and your opponent isn't. Before you say it, I know that this true for Killers aswell.
As for the normal game mode, I don't mind bringing otr every match, but it is locked behind a paywall and grind (same with ds unless you get lucky with a shrine), so especially newer players might not have it available and they are more vulnerable to tunneling anyway, so I do think some base kit tunneling protection would be nice. I know that would be a buff for survivors, so Killers would need a compensation.
In general your original advice kinda has the vibe "just get good and then tunneling want be an issued anymore" which is true in theory but not really helpful, because getting good takes time and is hindered by the lack of a good practice mode and playing cautious is kinda dependant on perks someone might not have available for one reason or another.
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I see people here talking about secondary objectives and no punishments for Killers here.
Yet Survivors pull off Hooked Survivors still within my TR, and I should not take advantage of that?????
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Those sound like awful compensation buffs on the killers side. Flashlights would be useless and getting stuns wouldn't be very helpful either.
No if anything, killers would need some buff that gives them a bit more time to complete their objective. May it be in form of some regression buff or a second objective.
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It's also a good example as to why slow down is needed.
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I always ask people who claim they get tunneled every game if they'd like to play a few rounds with me, since I very rarely see tunneling. Nobody ever takes me up on it.
It's negativity bias combined with not having a solid definition of what tunneling is. When people lose they act like it was because of tunneling regardless of whether or not it happened. It's like when people say they got gen rushed in a ten minute game. You didn't get gen rushed, you just played poorly and lost. Same thing.
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I agree! I was thinking about either Basekit Corrupt or Deadlock? Surely we can think of a good compensation for these buffs.
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Corrupt might be an idea. Or some form of regression that rewards killers for going for different survivors. Not sure.
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Not sure how that works when STBFL and all slowdown perks were not nerfed more than we got in basekit…
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Corrupt is definetly better overall.
It is reliable unless survivors decide to hide for whole duration and mainly it won't screw with your other perks/actions. Getting Deadlock in kicking animation is really annoying…
But I don't think there will be any basekit killer buffs. There is simply an issue with how it affects killers like Nurse/Blight/Billy and how it affects Pig/Trapper/Freddy.0 -
I feel like having Corrupt Intervention would solve so many problems… I've had troubles of not being able to find survivors at the start, so I lose a lot of time while gens get done. Corrupt Intervention helps a lot with this.
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I only say a second objective because while mini corrupt would be nice, I really don't want to add base kit perks, as it might weaken the perk it comes from.
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No the point is in chaos shuffle these frequently used perks aren't available, making them basekit defeats the purpose. Same way in lights out mode the map was darker and it made it a lot harder, if you want the ability to see well then I wouldn't play lights out mode.
The usual its too hard to play the game so please make built in perks.
Its not as simple as "get gud", its the more obvious engaging in poor play is bad for survival.
Running around making heaps of noise is bad for survival.
Making unsafe unhooks is bad for survival.
Body blocking with BT rather than using it to flee is often very bad for survival.
Getting found first is bad for survival.
Running blindly away from the killer with no plan is bad for survival.
Yes people get "tunnelled" but even without perks you have a myriad of tools to deal with being "tunnelled". They are the same tools you use in any chase "tunnelled" or otherwise.
Until a player does get some experience with skills and perks, cautious play is smart play. It's entirely to possible to exercise caution regardless of perks, none of what I listed above requires perks and will ensure better survival.
It's just a shame that many players, regardless of skill level, appear not very smart. You are gonna die a lot in DBD especially at the start. Some learn from it and grow, some tantrum and quit.
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Well the problem is they want ds 5 seconds basekit and second basekit bamboozle for only 5 seconds wouldn't do anything unsafe vaults sure but vaults like ones on garden of joy house heck no 15 seconds normally is just barely enough time.
I'm gonna have to say just make Brutal strength basekit so kicking so many pallets feels better at least
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Just out of curiosity, what would/did you say to the post like "Chaos Shuffle showed that Killers need slowdown perks"?
There are 140 Survivor perks in the game, having one of them as base kit would still leave 139 for Chaos Shuffle. Besides that, I'm sure there are ways to incentivize target switching that do not include making anything basekit, so that would not interfere with Chaos Shuffle at all.
But my main point is not about Chaos Shuffle, it is just an alternative game mode, it does not need to be perfectly balanced, I think it just shows why people chose what they usually chose (having addons and items available is kinda dumb though and defeats the purpose more than any base kit perk imo, but that is besides the point).
Doing stupid moves is not the same as being tunneled. To add to your examples, if I go back to the gen injured after the unhook and the Killer finds me there it's my own fault. I'm sure there are survivors that would call tunneling in this case but you seem to think the majority would. You seem to think that players are mostly being tunneled because they don't know how to play smart and that is a bit insulting.
When a Killer really wants to tunnel in my experience they stay near the hook and search for the injured person right away, when they don't have line of sight on them at the time of the unhook. Playing sneaky when you are injured and the Killer is already near you is a lot harder because of the cries of pain and blood, also detection perks are popular, so hiding in this szenario ist really hard when you do not have perks available like otr, iw,.. If the Killer finds you, looping well is the only option and then we are back at square one.
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"sigh" Why do people always accuse me of being just some killer main with biased views based on that premise alone. I realize the simplest concept is the easiest to argue but frankly its so narrow.
To your question about gen defence… I'd say the same thing.
As killer you have all the tools needed to pressure gens.
Yes gen defence and "anti-tunnel" perks make things easier, much easier, its why people run them, but they aren't mandatory.
There are plenty of vids about how to run structures, patrol and pressure gens, quickly find survivors. All basic game skills regardless of perks.
My advice to anyone who feels they need a particular perk to do well and want it base kit is… play without perks and addons for a bit and be sure to play the opposing side too.
…Or play atypical builds that don't involve common perks, now if only there was a game mode that had all players do that 🤔
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Ah you see, you aren't allowed to take advantage of that its not polite.
I hate it when a monstrous murderer in a nightmare realm kills me in an impolite fashion, its such a social faux pas.
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The most frustrating thing was using a bunch of BPS and then get tunneled at 5 gens to get 5k points multiplied in the end
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For someone who is so particular about the meaning of words I would have expected you to know the difference between an accusation and a question. Honestly, I'm not surprised by your answer at all, but I wasn't sure, that is why I asked.
For the discussion in general I guess we are just running in a circle.
Not sure if the last part of your answer was directed at me since I've already said that I enjoyed Chaos Shuffle, but it's gone now, so that isn't an option anymore. Edit: Nevermind, I saw the extension, that is nice, but unless they make it permant it will stop being an option at some point.
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