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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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Well seems to have diverged then as it's turned into being about 2 survivors hiding trying to get hatch.
We do got questions regarding something in the op:
Nothing is stopping that last survivor from just conceding up rather than stalemating the game and wasting everyone's time further. At best, you have a slim chance at hatch, while the other survivors sit there and rot. You're just as responsible.
Since the killer can kill that 3rd survivor but isn't how does it make that 4th survivor responsible? Also what makes the 4th giving themselves up in this scenario the reasonable course of action?
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Killer can try to kill that 3rd survivor. But it could go sideways if there's a save or something and then you've got two hiding.
Again, also, it comes down to:
- Killer's victory state is undefined. 3k is a house rule. 4k seems to be implied by BHVR, as they define it as 4 1v1s. So, by this logic, killer is losing once and winning three times.
- Survivors being inevitably BM on hatch or in gate, even if these are given. And nobody likes being BM'd.
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even if theoretically soloQ was equalized with SWFs at some point, that would be the state of the game where game would be absolutely unplayable for the killer role, now even at S-tier. But that day will never come since soloQ will still be bottlenecked by players simply refusing to play the game the way it's intended (people not using/abusing voice chat, people giving up because they still can't do some basic things in the match etc.)
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But you said, and I quote:
Now I've got two people playing hide and seek and stalling the game out rather than 1.
The first one of those two that you find you hook immediately. Thats it. Thats all it takes.
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I don't think it's possible without completely breaking the balance of the game, but stuff like baseline kindred (sans killer aura) and bond would be a great first step. Also completely remove self hook suicides as on the occasion I play solo queue, maybe half my losses are someone ragequitting a generally winnable game.
Unless they go down on a pallet. Or there's a BGP/flashlight on the last survivor. Or a flashbang. Or crackers. Or a sabo.
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It's definitely an ego thing on the Killer's part, because they can't get it out of their minds that it's not the end of the world if the last Survivor escapes every once in a while. Even when Killers don't slug, the last Survivor only gets out like 10% of the time (most likely less). If Killers are the ones initiating the stalemate by slugging the third Survivor and leaving them, they have no right to complain about the time wasted.
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Lightborn alone counters three of those. And sabotage usually isn't that dangerous.
A pallet save with Background Player, yes, that one has no counter.
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If the save happened you very very likely have atleast 2 trails to follow, 1 with blood as extra help. This may sound like the usual "skill issue" but many killers have a hard time completely losing a survivor after a save. That said it didn't answer how the survivor is responsible for a killer slugging for the 4k.
As for the bullets:
- True it is undefined but also the 4k instead implied by Bhvr in a way we see. 3k still rises mmr, we get happy entity if we get 8 hooks with zero kills, you got a hefty amount of bp we don't see it. Even if it's 1 v (1 v 1 v 1 v 1) and could be interpreted as 3 wins with 1 loss it could also be interpreted as 1 survivor and killer wins with 3 survivors loosing.
- That's got zero to do with either "responsibility" (in the sense of its on them that this is happening) or having the 4th giving themselves up the reasonable course of action. Not to say it wouldn't be unexpected or possibly deserved but the killer is still responsible for slugging for the 4k.
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I'm seeing some absolutely insane sabo these days, people are realizing with the right setup you can sabo, in the killer's face, and get away with only one health state. It's…incredibly irritating.
Okay. I pick up the survivor. Other survivor gets the save. Now they both hide and avoid AFK crows, because now both want the hatch.
Now what?
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To the first point, I agree nothing stopping the killer from hooking. You say rarely is there a good reason to stall for the 4k but I have already pointed out the reasons some killers might consider good reasons (mori, more BP, possibly adept achievement, because they don't feel a 3k is a win when survivor escapes hatch and BM post match). Not everyone will agree they are good reasons, but agreement isn't necessary. It's about if the killer feels the reasons good enough.
Second point, killers patroling keeping an eye on the slug. Its risky to heal yes and if the killer is lurking nearby then leaving a slug on the ground is no different to being left on hook when killer camps. It allows the team to do gens. Might not be fun for the slug but it's not fun being on a hook either.
Third point, yes in a way survivors are in part to blame for not coming out to do die, fact is the slug remains on the ground until last survivor has been found. If the last survivor wanted to they could concede, come out, both die and go next. But they don't because they want the hatch. Which is fine, both players killed and survivor are preparing for hatch situation but the reason the slug remains on the ground for the duration is because last survivor can't be found. It's interesting the double standards here tho. If the survivor was hooked the killer would still be able to go look for the last survivor and the 3rd would still be hanging from a hook doing nothing. But that's ok because it means they can suicide on hook. It's ok to suicide when they are on hook but not ok to suicide by coming out of hiding? That's besides the point tho, point is why the slug remains on the ground....reason being killed wants 4k and last survivor wants hatch. Both are to blame.
4th point, already explained the connection between slugging for 4k and hiding for the hatch. Killers slug for 4k because they know the last will hide so they want more time to find the hidden survivor. Why that survivor hides is due to the hatch. Clear connection right there. 2 separate issues yes but they are linked.
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I asked you this before: Why do you allow the save?
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Only way to prevent that is to proxy camp - which is complained about almost as much as slugging for the 4k.
You can absolutely lose people after an unhook. Hell, even people like Otz lose people. Blood puddles are nearly invisible on most maps anyway.
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How do you stop the save without slugging against a pallet/BGP play or a BGP/Sabo play?
Feel free to let me know because I'm seeing some absolute god tier sabos right now, especially when people are on coms.
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The killer can try for a 4k if they want to for any reason - it's ok to try to 4k every game if you want to. It does not make them a big meanie that needs their ego satiated.
The last survivor can try to escape/wait for hatch if they want to for any reason. I get a lot of hatch escapes in solo queue by playing lame when the game is wrapping up/it's a blow out.
Neither are responsible for the game design that wastes the slugged person's time if they both want to achieve these results when the situation arises.
The survivor does not need to give up to save that person's time and the killer does not need to hook that person to save their time.
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- Fair. Going to point out that due to this that it's going to cause endless misery to both sides but that's how the chips fall.
- Which is why people hide. If there's 2+ gens left and only 1 person up it's stupidly risky to finish a gen (unless it's far away) as the killer will probably go straight there and see you. Atleast on the hook it will end faster but that's beside the point and more below.
- Yeaaaa we're going to disagree here. That slug is staying on the ground because the killer wants them to for good or ill reason. Why should the survivor give up for the killer not killing? That one on the hook has 2 options to either wait on hook or die but the fact remains that they were caught already and either of those options are quicker than bleeding out (the hook even gives points [relatively sure more than recovery too]). The one not caught still does have a chance at escape via door or hatch but they also need to stop hiding as if the killer closes the hatch there's a death timer that forces their hand or does kill them. The game keeps going at a faster pace than the slug. Meanwhile what options does the slug got? Crawling away? Killer is going to keep an eye on them meaning that heal ain't coming. That player is stuck like that for the bleed out unless either the killer gets bored, the survivor gets bored, the killer finds the 4th, or the 3rd DCs, which last seeing bot logic, screws over the 4th.
- That really doesn't explain how they're connected. One has the killer leaving a survivor on the dirt able to be killed at basically any point to keep the game moving. The other has survivors holding up the game due to being cowards (probably not the right word but ehh don't care what you call em). One is on the killer the other on the 2 survivors. What your explaining is more why the last survivor hides when the killer slugs for the 4k, not why when the killer slugs 2 survivors hide for hatch or vise versa.
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You are afraid of this in a 2v1? Seriously?
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Afraid? Not exactly.
Even a small chance of a win turning into a 20 minute hunt for two survivors hiding in lockers and avoiding AFK crows is too high.
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We were under the impression that we were talking about slug saves correct? When a survivor saves another via flashlight or pallets? If we miss communicated we apologize.
For what it's worth, if it's only 2 survivors left we'd rather be proxied on hook rather than proxied as a slug.
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Well, if you actually lose both of them after that you deserve those 20min.
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We're aware they can but that said pretty sure that the slug is going to be thinking that though.
We're also aware they can and we're pretty sure some don't like that.
Both those said yes sometimes one party or another is at fault for the misery they inflict on one another. When there's options to not do something yet do so anyways it is on that player. Is it allowed? Sure but not everyone will be ok when it happens.
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it’s hilarious we’ve now got people trying to justifying slugging at three people left.!Why even play the game at that point?
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Pointing things sarcastically out is not any sort of argument.
I'm trying to explain that yes, there are reasons a killer might slug for the 4k outside of them just being mean, namely not wanting to get BM'd by a sore winner or, more importantly, survivors taking the game hostage for an extended period by hiding for the hatch.
Note the poster above you. People are literally justifying taking the match hostage until the server closes in this situation because the killer, rather than slug for the 4k, risked hooking and got sabo'd. So clearly this is something that survivor players will do.
It's a lose/lose. And better to inconvenience someone for 4 minutes than have your time wasted for 20.
Ah. So I can either risk having 20 minutes wasted…or I can slug for the 4k.
Thanks for proving my exact point I guess?
Every killer loses survivors sometimes, because there are perks (and also latency) which futz with tracking, some maps are very dark and/or cluttered etc. So if you're really justifying taking the game hostage for an extended period as some sort of…punishment for this, then yeah. Case closed.
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Lol, if the last two Survivors hiding for hatch is as common as people say it is, they're not going to be hanging around their teammate waiting for a sabo or flashlight save.
But in the hypothetical situation where it does happen, you can either chase the person who did the save, or the person who was saved. The latter would be the more likely target, but the former could be good, too, if they're already injured.
Alternatively, you can do a quick check of your surroundings before picking up. Check nearby rocks, walls, etc. to see if the other person isn't hanging around. Or better yet, equip Infectious Fright. Then you'll know if the other person is nearby as soon as you knock down the third Survivor.
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They could well be a duo. There's no way I'll know.
Checking surroundings means diddly against a good BGP or sabo player. And no, 'just equip x perks in case survivors do that one really annoying thing' doesn't work any more than 'oh BHVR don't need to fix hide and seek squads because Whispers exists'.
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It's a lose/lose. And better to inconvenience someone for 4 minutes than have your time wasted for 20.How many times has this situation ever happened to you? Because I can't think of a single time its ever happened to me where there was
1: save at 2 survivors
2: they both got away
3: they managed to hide out for 20 minutes
Even if there is a slight chance of it, you are also wasting your own time. You'll have far more of those 4 minute situations than you will the 20. Even if you have no qualms about wasting other player's time, you're doing it to yourself as well.
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Well, if you're going to respond to every suggestion with "But then this will happen, now what?", then stop asking for suggestions.
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Sigh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question
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It's happened to me once I think ever since 2021. It's a non-issue.
What this virtually non-existent situation is in the thread is a flimsy excuse to attempt to justify slugging the second last survivor for the 4K and try to convince people it's the survivors' fault instead of the Killer player who created the the situation.
You can see that in how contradictory and non-sensical the arguments for it are. The Killer will save more of their own time overall by hooking the second last survivor and then moving on. Instead of potentially wasting 4 minutes for a survivor to bleed out and then start the Hatch RNG the Killer could just start the Hatch RNG and then probably be in another match by the time they would have bled out the slugged survivor in the last match.
The BP argument is nonsensical since you're talking about a few BP in one category. By entering a fresh match faster the overall BP earned by a Killer is higher per minute is much higher than bleeding out a Survivor to lessen the chance the last Survivor might get Hatch.
The Hatch is Killer slanted anyways since the Killer has a much faster movement rate and their search won't be hindered by stopping to hide. The Killer is the hunter; not the hunted and in most cases the Killer will have a faster match and more BP overall by just hooking the second last survivor.
There are no logical reasons to bleed out the second last survivor other than an Adept or achievement and it's poor sportsmanship besides. The OP seems bothered by that and being BMed by Survivors so, instead of becoming the type of player others would like to play against, engages in the sort of behaviours that create more BM against Killer players and is trying to justify their position when they're behaving just as poorly as the people the OP is criticizing. It's obvious from the responses it's not working and most people agree that bleeding out the second last survivor is poor sportsmanship. So, in my opinion, the sluggers for the 4K should just either change their behaviour or own their behaviour. They're not going to convince the person being bled out that it was good sportsmanship to bleed them out since it's obviously not so. It's pointless to try to convince the bled out player otherwise; they know how much it sucked. If the sluggers for the 4K genuinely don't care about people's opinions then don't try to argue something that's not okay is; just recognize that's how they play and they aren't considerate of the other players time. It's not like BHVR is going to ban the sluggers for slugging for the 4K or anything so either they should either own their behaviour or change their behaviour.
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I wouldn't be too sure about that. There was a hell of a lot of questions about slugging in the latest satisfaction survey. I wouldn't be surprised if all this slugging for the 4k nonsense has made way for some upcoming changes to slugging.
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Who exactly likes getting BM'd? I know I don't and so I'll take steps to avoid it. Sure, it's a circular problem but it also is what it is at this point. If BHVR wanted to improve player sportsmanship, they could have taken steps years ago.
Again - I generally don't slug for the 4k, unless I've had a hiding group recently. In which case, yeah. I've paid my dues and I'm not going to waste 20 minutes of my limited gaming time versus being a bit mean for 4.
It may be a region thing or an MMR thing, but I see it pretty often. More than once a week. Last two survivors hide either to troll or so one of them has a chance for hatch. You've got people in this thread literally defending it 'because DbD is hide and seek bruh, look at this advertising blurb'.
You cannot expect one side to be the bigger man when it has zero benefit to them. Manner up, a big part of this fixes itself. It costs you nothing to just leave once you find the hatch or the gates are open.
EDIT: I still have pictures of survivors from years ago using terrain geometry to take games hostage. Lots of them. It's not an uncommon instinct. Mandy confirmed that nobody was getting banned for it either (DDS unhittable spot a while back).
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It's overdue. It's also irritating that the final two survivors hiding until the server closes or I DC isn't even on the radar.
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More times than I can remember where I play fairly chill, 2 hook everyone if possible and the last two hide forever and avoid crows. Fewer but still plenty of 3-4man SWFs who set out to do this from the start, including a Russian TTV group I've faced multiple times, have 'hide and seek pro' or something in their profile, come in with builds for it and are obnoxious as all hell.
That specific example? Maybe…5?
It's always a duo, generally a pallet save but sometimes a good sabo.
I suspect it could have happened way more too but I got lucky and saw the sabo coming in time to drop.
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Maybe, but if anything has been learnt by the past it's that 1. Changes to slugging has been tried previously with basekit unbreakable and survivors abused it. And 2. Any changes in this area of the game will just teach killers to adapt. Such as how I already adapted by not slugging in 2 v 1 situations but keeping 3rd survivor alive until I find the 4th. Slugging at 5gens is the more likely thing that would be effected but 2 v 1 situations won't change. Look at at the nerfs to camping over the years, it's taught killers to proxi camp better, it's never gone away. Slugging will be no different.
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"Survivors abused it" lmao no.
They canceled basekit Unbreakable because it was meant to ship alongside the version of the final mori that activates when all 4 survivors were slugged/hooked/dead, and they canceled that because even with basekit UB the increase in slugging was horrid
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It was actually abused, survivors were bringing flashlight and using any means they could to prevent killer hooking. Which meant they had to slug then unbreakable would kick in so couldn't slug or hook. That's why slugging was still horrid, survivors were trying to be slugged knowing they can just get back up.
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I played that PTB. What I observed were lethal killers downing people super fast and when the fourth went down the other three were auto-sacrificed while the fourth was mori’d. Matches were ending in 5 minutes. Perhaps it was scrapped for both reasons.
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Unbreakable basekit when 2 survivors are left should solve the biggest problem
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Probably both. I remember videos of people making themselves unhookable with BO and stuff.
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Ah, so you're one of those 'I wasn't being BM, I was just trying to get your attention!' types. Joy.
And no. If the survivors are savvy, you cannot locate them on some killers/maps, even with Whispers.
AFK crows should be taking care of it, but there are multiple ways to easily prevent ever getting these, which has been the case forever - and you still see survivors defending it.
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Unbreakable basekit at 2 v 1 situations wouldnt change anything. 1 survivor hiding waiting for the other to die but they won't die because they have unbreakable basekit so keep getting back up. No different to what I do really, keep the 3rd alive until I find the hidden one. Usually results in 3rd survivor ratting out the 4th to get the match over with.
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It does change a lot
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Ok, are you able to explain how or what it changes?
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It would result in a lot of slug camping and/or 2 survivors playing hide and seek for half an hour.
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"It would result in [thing that rewards the last survivor doing gens] and [thing that people already complain happens]"
So at worst things stay the same and at best survivors are rewarded for not hiding and doing the objective (or killers are forced to end the game faster)
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Play with No Mither and you will understand
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It already happens
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It would happen more, especially the taking hostage/hide and seek crap.
I think there is a solution to this problem, but I don't think it would work in isolation. Fix hiding (and AFK crows), then do this. Sure.
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not true.. if you are hiding with your buddy then sorry but you are the one with other guy forcing me to slug because otherwise i won't kill you.. 2 survs hiding is just making game much much longer than leaving one guy to bleed out and not touching him at all
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I need to make this post into a "don't make me tap the sign" meme
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if you as 4th killer are hiding and not playing… you are the one making game longer than it has to be and slugging is only 4 minutes, much much less than looking for camper or chasing 2 surv who CAN'T win game anymore if its more than 1 gen
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