General Discussions
General Discussions
yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon
Comments
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it shows the hypocrisy between survivor efficiency vs killer efficiency.
apparently we need literal godmode for survivors who are unhooked (when being hooked is a result of their own misplays lmao) and if anyone disagrees then they should just "not tunnel"
just pretty sick of people suggesting the most obnoxious things in order to prevent the killer from doing their objective efficiently when I never hear anything that stops the survivors from doing the same-6 -
If you think that in the year 2025 that being hooked is somehow a "misplay" on the Survivors part, I really think that says everything about your argument.
It is not 2017 DBD anymore. Getting hooked is a part of normal gameplay. Survivors are not meant to be able to run the Killer the entire game. Being hooked is not a misplay, just like a Survivor being unhooked is not a misplay from the Killer.
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Aren't you missing something?
The perks you're complaining about automatically disable themselves the second that survivor touches the gen. If you want to defend the gen, you easily can.
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u r us vs them incarnate
And the pot calls the kettle black. If you're having to resort to insults, it's time to stop commenting in this thread.
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killer needs more to pursue others
Why? This point is always assumed and never argued properly.
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after having multiple games go like this tonight yeah I can’t wait for the changes they got to make the game more enjoyable. Took a week break from this game and I had a 12 game losing streak with only 3 games that went normalish in those loses. I did break that streak finally but wow it was miserable
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The sad state of the current DbD game build is that killers can be punished by anti-tunnel features even if they don't tunnel; You can't restrict killers into a hook-only-and-never-tunnel situation unless there are fair shutoff conditions for anti-tunnel features.
Actively trying to "play fair" and never tunnel, only to get punished anyway by "anti-tunnel" features is one of the heaviest catalysts that drive killer mains to embrace slugging. These killers are trying to play around improperly implemented mechanics…So just fix those mechanics to only work when a survivor is truly being targeted by malicious tunnel-vision, THEN place your restrictions.
Forcing killers to eat a wall of undeserved extra chances + further diminishing ways to work around that wall is likely to have a nasty impact on the desire to queue for the killer role.
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To be fair, the only anti-tunnel feature you ever actually have to deal with when not tunnelling is very specifically Endurance.
Stuff like Babysitter, Blood Rush, Shoulder the Burden, and Decisive Strike can't be weaponised that way, so it's not that difficult to envision a fix that just targets the Endurance.
Personally, I support replacing post-unhook Endurance with losing collision, so you can't bodyblock aggressively for your teammates with it.
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You're explaining the differences and why the other tactics are easier/more effective but those don't indicate 'fair' play needs buffs. This entire topic was started by a guy that claims to win 90% of his matches without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so why would that need to be buffed up even further?
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That's still running into the same issue though.
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I already go against experienced survivors including decent streamers and swfs but it doesn't mean anything i will always say GG
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The game has always been anti-survivor and has increasingly more so every year. It's pretty obvious too considering survivor has always had a bonus, a huge 400% too.
Killer will always be easiest role, it would take drastic changes for the game to ever be fair, and BHVR would never do that so killers that want to win 99% of the time.
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That's kinda entitled
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They're addressing survivor spawns, which is a huge issue and has been for a long time. I don't think people realize how helpful that will be. They also got rid of gen tapping. Solo Queue is STILL the weakest role in the game.
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Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things. They didn't 3% bonus speed just for being injured, or having 2 invincible survivors after picking up in the killer's face. Regardless, survivors got praised for adapting. Killers adapted, and they got shamed for it. "Why are you still tunneling?! You're supposed to do this, do that!" And nobody's "playing around" the 8-kick limit. They just have to deal with it, and it's BS. Right? It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
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Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things.
If you want to argue that, then neither did killers 'need' any of the buffs they've gotten over time. Smaller maps, weaker loops, shorter hit cooldown, shorter on-hit sprint, longer gens…
And they certainly don't 'need' to get their hands held now and be protected from fringe nerfs.
It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
If a high comp tier survivor team gets pushed to within an inch of losing, forced to stick around in a 45+ minute match against what was effectively a bot, then I think it's pretty fair to say that survivors do actually -need- the gen-kick limit.
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What actually did killers adapt the past years? How to abuse "killer strategies" to its fullest?
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I hate to side track with my pointless commentary, but reading this thread makes me crave some My Little Oni lol. The one mode where camping, tunneling and (mostly) slugging are non-issues, and it got no love at all.
Bhvr plz bless us with 1v8 MLO
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They were only non-issues because if you were found, you were dead. You didn't even have the basic tool (vaulting) to help you in chase. You were also forced to play as the OG Survivors in their default cosmetics, and you couldn't play as any of the licensed Survivors at all.
I wouldn't mind trying some other kind of "quick mode" like that at normal size. Everyone starts on death hook, only three gens to repair and gates automatically open when they're done. I wouldn't know if I'd enjoy it until I do try it, though…
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care to explain why or do you just feel like saying something with no real argument/support like the countless other people who have disagreed with me here
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except my comment actually focuses on something to do with the game and my argument, which is efficiency from both sides and the hypocrisy surrounding it.
yours focuses on insulting someone, making broad statements about one side, and encouraging someone to quit the game because you disagree with them.-7 -
lolol. put that there because I knew you would nitpick it and just ignore the rest of my argument.
im convinced none of the people who disagree with my stance (that spreading hooks is a bad strategy) actually have an argument for why its good, because nearly every person who disagrees with me has either tried to gaslight me and my knowledge of the game, ignored what I said, or in your case just nitpick one random thing and ignore the core of my argument. some have even done all three!-8 -
You put that there because you are out of actual arguments other than the obvious, which is that you simply wish for things to continue how they are, because they benefit you.
Rather, you'd ignore my points and make ad hominem attacks.
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that only means the first gen now will pop in 20 seconds...
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With absolutely no progress anywhere else, and that's only if they A: spawn next to a four-person gen and B: choose to be that inefficient by all grouping up on it.
You still might even be able to interrupt it if they have no gen speed increases and you make a beeline for them, too.
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To be fair this needs addressing anyway and should have been done already. I say that as a survivor main.
Somehow the game has consistently spawned survivors together in 2/3s and even groups of 4 for months now.
There is an offering for that to happen and it never gets brought. It’s clearly bugged and I think it why so many killers bring Lethal now. It’s actually detrimental to start together with Lethal in the killer toolkit when we are talking about people like Billy/Blight/Nurse/Michael etc
but then we are talking about BHVR who have left Wesker live in 2v8 with a game breaking bug - it’s no surprise this has taken so long. Quite ironic when they’re talking about a ‘health chapter’.3 -
And we kind of accept that. We're just looking for ways to make survivors perpetually on gens less painful. The survivor who pushed a gen injured can be punished, but that's only if the killer abandons everything to go straight there and down them before they reset. Survivors don't mess around with healing speed; you've got like a 15-second window. And there's no point in not tunneling if the person doesn't have DS/OTR, but how would you know they have it until you get hit by them? That's the problem. You're playing around perks that might not be there.
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Oh, you're referencing that match are you? That fluke, that clown show? If you believe that was a real competitive match, then there's nothing much else to say.
They knew the killer, who was clearly talking way above his head, would go for a 3-gen, and they took ZERO measures to avoid it. They just gave him a 3-gen for free, as Skull Merchant. That alone disqualifies their comp status. Then they proceed to mess around for a bit, needlessly resetting at times, throwing pallets they don't need to throw, not even tapping the gens (they could do that back then). And then even when they made the biggest misplay ever, getting downed in the 3-gen, and the killer actually picked the person up, what were the other players doing? Nothing. No flashlight save, no gen progress, in fact flashlight guy was just behind a wall standing around, others were just barely making their way back to the gens. They should have all piled on a gen and won right there, but they didn't. And in the end, after all those misplays, they still end up winning anyway. They're frauds. They live off reputation alone. And that match of theirs has been the biggest propaganda piece in this game's history.
In spite of all this talk about needing strategy and game awareness and skillful play to make a healthy game, y'all don't even hold "top players" to that standard. Whatever they do, y'all eat up as "top level play" solely because they call themselves a comp team. And I've never been one to make fun of the comp scene, because they're at least trying to push DBD to being competitive. But I do make fun of it when even I and my scrub SWF could have played better, and people still praise it.
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If they solo heal, they aren't doing gens for almost half a minute.
If they get healed, TWO Survivors are now, funny enough, not doing gens.
If they do not heal, they are extremely vulnerable.
Plus, if they touch a gen, all their perks deactivate as well as my proposed system
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The announcement, the way it was framed, came across as anti-killer, as if 'we are survivors' and killers are some other people who need to be punished for not following certain chivalric code that goes with the game. From experience I doubt BHVR will actually be so anti-killer in practice, they know that killers are needed, if killers disappear then the survivors who are 4/5th of their player base will have to play against boring bots. I'm probably 50/50 killer survivor these, days, formerly killer main, around 3K hours across platforms, slugging isn't actually that easy to do effectively. And frankly tunnelling is necessary in high MMR encounters, gen pressure alone generally won't work against strong SWFs, quite the opposite of some of the ridiculous claims in this thread that tunnelling is done only because of badness or lack of skill. I hate going solo and getting tunnelled, it's not a good experience, but let's cut the BS about tunnelling being something that isn't ever necessary or only done by unskilled killers.
When it comes down to it, if a killer has two survivors in the vicinity in a recently unhooked situation, an injured one on death hook and a healthy one with no hooks, it's completely irrational not go after the injured one, esp. (as is often the case for survivors in the unlucky position) when the injured one is someone already known to be worse at looping. If you want to change that rationality, you have to make adjustments that change the underlying incentives, and if you do something like give base kit OtR after 2nd hooks you need to compensate killers in a way that is balanced across MMR levels.
In a lot of games you can tell that when you are winning comfortably and don't need to tunnel, & I would avoid it because I want to double pip and don't want to be a meanie, but if they gens are flying you need to do what you need to do. That's the game BHVR created, it's not perfect experience, BHVR have always struggled to balance changes for high MMR and low MMR, solo q, killer and SWF, but the game's hardly a disaster like people are making out… we're all playing it. People will always gripe about about something, about the pot holes in the roads or the price of gas, it doesn't mean a violent revolution is needed.
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they also need survivors and given there is a pretty consistent 300% bonus for survivors on 1v4 and 400% on 2v8, which is up from an average of 250% in the last iteration, perhaps it’s time to start considering that they don’t need to worry as much about the killers right now. Survivors make up the majority of the play base and if they’re losing them, which they seem to be at the moment, it’ll have a massive impact too. Killers are already complaining they can’t get matches for ages and that’s with the incentives in place.
The announcement came across as anti-killer but the reality of how it’s going to work is arguable pro-killer at worst and pro-status quo at best. However, I’d happily take longer waiting times if it means getting rid of some of the ‘I need to get a 4k every match an will do anything to get it’ killers that are plaguing the game at the moment and still calling for it to be easier.3 -
Killers got 'more' in the past 3 years because the game was getting grossly unbalanced and the power role was no longer the killer, which it should be. That's how asymmetrical games have to work in order for it to not be frustrating. The thing is OG survivors were extremely conditioned to things being a certain way and having a pretty steady stream of new tools added. The complaining when killers got QoL value changes to their interactions was pretty ridiculous if you remember. But it became apparent afterward that constant changes were going to have be made on both sides as the meta shifted after each change.
It's always doom and gloom from either side whenever changes are proposed that aren't some kind of gain for their preferred role unless it's a change that falls into the rare middle ground where both sides agree the issue is egregious.
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But 3 years ago the game was not really survivor-sided. It was pretty balanced, but it shifted to killer-sided over the past years. 2021 was not 2016, 2021 the game was fairly balanced.
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401st comment🫡
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And that's how it always is. I mean, look at this:
"Killers wanting to get more kills is a plague to the game!"
I disagree that you can 'tell' when you're winning and when you're losing. It's a sweat fest from start to finish, and survivors have outrageous comeback potential. Until that last survivor is dead, slugged, or standing in the exit gate, you don't know for sure that you've won. Even if you are clearly winning hard, that doesn't mean you let up, because again, they'd be able to come back from it. I've had 3-4 slugged, and then random Unbreakable/reset happens, and everyone is up and healthy for the rest of the game. I've seen teams come back from impossible situations, because they actually pushed the gens and looped well (I guess their brains suddenly turned on), and you end up losing or drawing something you think you would've won.
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2021 was before patch 6.1.0, it was definitely more survivor sided.
Patch 6.1.0 was the patch that finally fixed Dead Hard, if you recall. Only a few patches before that was the patch that finally fixed Decisive Strike. The game used to lean towards survivors to varying degrees (depending on your skill level), until that big shakeup happened. 2021 was before that cutoff point.
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No, the game has never been balanced, especially not in the killer's favor. These buffs have been crumbs. Like @SpaghettiYOLO said, killers get slight buffs to their hti recovery time, their kicking speed, and how much sprint burst they give survivors off hit, and survivors lose their minds. In fact, 6.1.0 still gets complained about to this day, as "the update that killed the game for survivors," when basically every killer buff except the ones I've mentioned have been taken away or curtailed in time.
The periods that you reference had god loops like Ironworks window, old Ormond, nerfed Pop, ridiculous gen speed and gen tools, crazy healing speed, infinites, instant gen completion BNP, true insta-heals, linked loops where you almost never had to throw the pallet, unnerfed Balanced, old Dead Hard, etc. It was no paradise for killer. And survivors losing all those advantages is seen as an attack on the role, instead of just balance. They actually No, an attack on a role was on killer in 2020 - 2022, which was like 2 straight years of killer nerfs against Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Pop, Pain Res, Ruin, Undying, and so much more. Nobody batted an eye. But if the devs suggest bringing back incentives for hooking, or making killer's chase power stronger, they'll say the end times have come, again.
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All the talk about the game being balanced, killer sided or survivor sided, it's an asymmetric horror game where the devs set, and generally achieve as far as I can tell ,their targeted escape and kill rates. The survivor sided/killer sided stuff is irrelevant, it's a meaningless partisan distraction, the balancing problems are all about getting the desired kill rates and ensuring the various experiences across low MMR and high MMR, solo, killer and SWF are all equally rewarding, that's the bit that's proving tricky.
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No, the game has never been balanced, especially not in the killer's favor.
CoBRuption meta was very heavily in favour of the killer, and killers are currently at a distinct advantage as well.
These buffs have been crumbs. Like @SpaghettiYOLO said, killers get slight buffs to their hti recovery time, their kicking speed, and how much sprint burst they give survivors off hit, and survivors lose their minds. In fact, 6.1.0 still gets complained about to this day, as "the update that killed the game for survivors," when basically every killer buff except the ones I've mentioned have been taken away or curtailed in time.
This is just flatly not true. Survivors don't complain about 6.1 and they certainly don't call it anything as dramatic as that.
What DOES get complained about, though, is that in the lead-up to 6.1, it was generally agreed that things needed to change from both sides. Survivors needed to get tunnelling and camping addressed, and killers countered that they needed generalised buffs to be able to make that work properly, demanding that those get done first and then the strats could be addressed after.
Well, 6.1. rolled around, some strong survivor perks copped a few nerfs, there was a host of general killer buffs, and, for some reason, nerfs to anti-tunnel.
And then the biggest problem with 6.1: Killers forgot, within a week, that they had been buffed as hard as they had. Ironically, in much the same way you're dismissing it all as 'crumbs'.
That's what makes me hate 6.1 as well. It did what killers were begging for, and then they turned around and dismissed it all, demanding yet more buffs, despite the statistics showing the significance of their impact.
The periods that you reference had god loops like Ironworks window, old Ormond, nerfed Pop, ridiculous gen speed and gen tools, crazy healing speed, infinites, instant gen completion BNP, true insta-heals, linked loops where you almost never had to throw the pallet, unnerfed Balanced, old Dead Hard, etc
These are also flatly incorrect. BNP lost its insta-gen in 2017 (Or 2018, if you want the before-last version), not 2021. Balanced Landing was reworked into its current form in 2019, not 2021. So no, the period that @Aven_Fallen is referring to did not include either of those. Unless you were going up against hackers.
They actually No, an attack on a role was on killer in 2020 - 2022, which was like 2 straight years of killer nerfs against Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Pop, Pain Res, Ruin, Undying, and so much more.
Because kill rates were through the roof. Which is also why the generalised killer buffs in 6.1 were accepted without much of any protest: They needed thsoe. The ONLY thing that got pushback was the +10 seconds on gen completion timers for the specific reason that this was a direct buff to camping and tunnelling.
But with every buff killers have received, they just keep demanding more. Kill rates increased, BHVR has openly stated that they are not aiming for a fair balance but a balance that suits the game's theme, which favours the killer, we've got colossal win streaks and the average killer winning at least half their matches and losing far fewer than that…
Even in this thread, the OP mentions having a 90% winrate and somehow it's still not enough.
Forum killers will still fight tooth and nail against any change that benefits survivors in any way, including nerfs that specifically target certain overperforming playstyles, and they keep demanding more and heavier generalised buffs.
That is the problem with 6.1. It gave killers what they wanted and exposed how little interest they have in balance.
Compare that to survivors, who have accepted, with pretty much no fuss, that the developer has come out and openly stated that yes, the game will be balanced AGAINST you.
They just want to be able to play.
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I literally cannot believe people claim the game used to be more balanced. Have we forgotten the days of being able to permanently destroy every nonbasement hook on the map and instablind flashlights? Trapper's traps being permanently destroyable by sabo? Wraith not only getting knocked out of his power by flashlights but stunned and hindered? Infinite loops? This was also before many current meta perks for killers were even in the game.
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they need to nerf gen rushing the anti tunnel tools (because they last so long survivors are aggressively using them) and get rid of the gen kick limit. also what gen slowdown perk hasn't been nerfed? because the cycle goes meta gen perks get nerfed → people move to the weaker gen perks and so on until they loop back to the original perks
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why wouldn't they go for the person who's unhooked? it's a guy missing a health state and a hook state. you'd be an idiot not to go for it why can survivors rush their objective and not killers?
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why wouldn't they go for the person who's unhooked?
This question alone means that every current anti tunnel perk, mechanic, and measure is completely worthless, and it's good that the devs are looking at other options in phase 2.
why can survivors rush their objective and not killers?
Because survivor gameplay is in response to the killer, and you've already answered your own question. If the killer is only focusing on giving one survivor something to do (chase, hooked, repeat), then one survivor is unhooking briefly, and two are doing whatever they want (gens).
If the killer was actually chasing someone off of a gen instead of tunneling in your scenario, then say most once person can be on gens. That's slowdown.
Instead, what we have are people who relentlessly tunnel one person every game and scream for more regression whenever that doesn't work.
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If you want to cherry pick an argument then that's fine, but let's not pretend the very post I responded to, in its entirety, wasn't talking about how important killer players and how the game is designed for them are to the health of the game and that my response to that wasn't reasonable and proportionate whilst mentioning the importance of that for the other side. The quote you chose to write in your post and the subsequent points made make absolutely no sense with the context of mine - to the point where I'm not even sure you've quoted the right person. The latter half of my post was even in agreement with the premise of the one to which I responded, and you've also quoted, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at - short of seeming to want some sort of argument that isn't there. As a polite nudge, perhaps you should read more than the first two lines of a post before quoting it and jumping into an entire narrative with that, because the first two lines, it seems, are all you're responding too.
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