The Representation Tweet
Comments
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The way I see it, make your characters how you want. Make every single character LGBTQ or whatever for all I care. Maybe I just don't understand what it's like as a straight person, but I would think the easiest way to be inclusive and help LGBTQ people to feel more normal and less like a marginalized group is to treat them like any other normal person. That means not tokenizing them and making a big deal out of having somebody like that in your stuff.
As I said, maybe I just don't get it or something, but if people just started making celebratory posts and stuff about something like that related to me (like having a straight pride month or something) it would feel odd to me rather than inviting that people are making a big deal out of my traits. I think it's absolutely great to be inclusive, but when it's purely for the purpose of inclusivity, to the point where it takes away from the quality of the character, that's when it starts to feel (to me at least) like it's "pandering" and being used more for good PR than just having a character that's like that from the beginning.
One of the other commenters (I think with a Freddy profile picture) commented with a picture of one of those Stranger Things characters (the Scoops Ahoy girl), and after being reminded of her, I totally agree that she's an LGBTQ character done right. It's made obvious what she's interested, but it's not done in a way that takes away from the episode, just a little thing you learn about her. I think when something like this is revealed in a good way (like how they did it really smoothly and naturally with the girl in the Stranger Things episode) then it's awesome, but it just feels out of place when it's made to be the defining characteristic of something. I also saw somebody make a comment about people hating on stuff only when LGBTQ things are introduced, but I think that's just stupid, because Ellie was already revealed to like girls before anything was revealed about The Last of Us 2. I remember hearing plenty of people saying they did her reveal well because they didn't throw it into the story as one of the main plot points, and it was just revealed in a natural way.
I don't care much either way because it doesn't matter to me what kind of genitals Dwight likes, and if you LGBTQ people are loving it that much then that's even better. I just personally would feel weird if people tried to tokenize me in such a way.
And please, don't even try to twist what I'm saying around to try to make it sound like I'm hating on LGBTQ representation. I hate having to add this in, but there's too many people who will try something like that.
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Just a FYI, its not just LGBT people being toxic. But I agree, if they wanna introduce sexuality it should of been in the story non chalantly, and not this big announcement. I dont get why the rest of their backstory is less important than their sexuality, they haven't gotten announcements on twitter.
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Agreed Wacky.
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G*mers™: I like totally don't care if a character's LGBT+
Also G*mers™: Here's my essay on how little I care.
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I find it obnoxious this over indulgence to represent a people in an extremely small bracket of civilization. We really don't need LGBT in ever facet of culture. Nobody cares about your 'lifestyle', we're just tired of seeing it all everywhere. Get over yourselves.
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You use the word retcon I don't think you know what that word means.
Let me break it down really slowly
If something hasn't been established yet it can't be retconned.
Feng Min's sexuality has not been revealed so confirming that she is lesbian bisexual, straight or whenever would not retcon any part of her character.
Using that logic literally anything new learnt about a character is a retcon
Claudette implied to have autism - retcon
Evan's former friendship the workers -retcon
Rin doing Kendo - retcon
Jane - quitting a degrading performance retcon
David having an ex-girlfriend - massive retcon
Do you see how mindless it is when you start using your logic to apply the word retcon.
For the love of god would you people stop using that word when you clearly don't know what it means.
Even if they added the fact that Min is a lesbian just to pander it's still wouldn't be a retcon.
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^
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What individuality. We literally know very little about MOST of the characters on the roster so far, besides what little backstory we've gotten in their character bios, and what we're now getting from the archives, most characters up to this point have been mostly blank slates. Who cares if Meg or Claude are lesbians or bi or pan. Who cares if Jake is into dudes or Dwight might be bi. It doesn't change what we already know about them. Who cares if Kate might be ace. All it does is enriches their story, which is what some people want. Some people love blank slates in videogames, others want to know EVERYTHING about every character. What's their fave food, what time they gt up in the morning, do they eat breakfast??? And sexuality can be one of those things, especially if it helps people feel more included.
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The devs made it clear that they are inclusive and don’t want to exclude LGBT+. And that extremely small bracket is not as small as you might think. It’s not all about representation but just about not-exclusion.
if you are not okay with it in DbD you can just stop playing it.
you could also just not let it affect you, it’s really as simple as that. The lore in this game is really something that doesn’t get thrown at you.
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All this representation is nonsense when it's coming from corporations, there I said it.
If you don't value representation over money then it's not worth anything for you. it's the same with sony celebrating LGBT while sony Saudi arabia...yeah you get the point
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It’s not nonsense if there are some people happy about the fact they can relate to the char.
but in DbDs case I really think they want to make realistic and natural characters and that does include LGBT+. It’s really shouldn’t be such a big deal. With the amount of lore we are getting with new characters and tomes it was bound to happen so that the lore has more variety.
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To be fair, many direct anti-LGBTQ comments were deleted and I guess the users warned/banned/whatever.
and the responses from BHVR on the hateful tweet-comments did show their stand pretty well.
but I have to agree, I am also pretty disappointed by the community. But sadly I am not surprised.
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Please don't conflate the response from certain people with the devs' opinions. Give the devs some time, you won't regret it.
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at least in-game the report button can be used and I am sure BHVR acts accordingly (assuming you meant homophobic endgame Chat etc.)
They really shouldn’t go all out on it also, you can even now see people that say they are LGBT+ having a problem with that little tweet saying they won’t exclude LGBT+ topics anymore.
But yeah I personally agree that showing more support can’t really hurt.
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My point flew right over your head.
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That may very well be true.
but it did sound like „representation is nonsense if it comes from corporations“ followed by an example of a corporation doing representation on one side but acts differently on the other side.
since you wrote it here in the discussion about representation in DbD I assumed you were comparing BHVR and Sony...
well, regardless, my point was „representation is not always nonsense just because it comes from a corporation“.
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I just love seeing straight guys telling us how much they support us by telling us that confirming a characters sexuality, other than hetero, would be pandering and unneeded. Don't all of you?
Also, the people talking about characters being "retconned" if they are confirmed LGBT+ just proves what many of us already have said before: if a sexuality isn't confirmed everyone assumes the character is straight and this becomes their canon sexuality.
Thus, including an already existent character's sexually in new lore, and confirming it as anything other than hetero is seen as a change/retcon of the character. But a character being given a new hobby, a new habit, job, a friend, what have you being added? That's seen as an expansion of the character's lore. It's disappointing when people get bent out of shape over it.
If Adam has a wife in new lore? Nothing. No one cares. A husband? Pandering, a retcon, and an unneeded inclusion. This is the world we live in.
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Oh „of the west“ meant only USA. Gotcha. Surveys in Europe show slightly higher numbers. (And there are of course always those that lie to themselves and others but thats a different topic).
so, those 3.5 percent should not ask for a character they can relate to in a videogame? Because they are a minority?
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
Incoherent ? Nah you understood it you just didn't like it.
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They don't care. It doesn't matter how articulate, direct, or accurate your argument is. They don't care and will just go on to spout their nonsense and continue to believe it is fact and inarguable.
Hell, the fact that they even posted these numbers as if they are pure facts, and then immediately folded after you pointed out why it is flawed data, is hilarious imo.
Side: Incoherent was a fine choice of words. Because it was incoherent. It was a talking point they only seem to half understand and decided to regurgitate what they could remember.
Didn't you know? Being a minority means you mean less. You are minor after all. 😲
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I was waiting for someone to flat out call people homophobes for disagreeing with their world view, even though 99% of the disagreement in this thread is about how bhvr if implementing lgbtq characters, not if they should.
If you try to feel insulted chances are you will.
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This is funny because everyone who thinks these characters are gay are causing stereotypes that everyone hate😂 why do you think ace is gay?
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His clothes. Screams gay 😂
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Honestly I can agree with you in so many other characters as well but in the end its all style. And certain people hate those stereotypes, anyways as long as dbd doesn't pander to the community by making Dwight and David gay for each other or be a and huntress ill be fine because those are fanfics and if you change sexuality of a character or make one so let based on your audience then its just pandering if they made jake park gay and it was their choice then 100 percent back them
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Whats funny is after i made that comment it was leaked that Ace is in the next tome. Considering the tweet that was put out i have a feeling were going to get confirmation.
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You mean "couldn't care less"
Imo if they want to add someone new who's gay then idc, but I'd like to keep the old characters sexuality unknown so that everyone gets to keep their ships (and I get to see them arguing over it)
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And what do you think it is? Gallup suggests 4% and that's quite a stretch. Non-exclusion means inclusion, which is representation so not sure what kind of wordplay games you're after here.
"if you are not okay with it in DbD you can just stop playing it." Right, so we're using the "this is is my country and if you don't like it get out" kind of attitude? I don't think you're going to sway anyone to your side with that. You also can't say to me don't let it affect me when this mentality of inclusion has to seep into the crack and crevice of everything. I'm not homophobic I just don't see why a game that has nothing to do with sexuality has to broach this subject at all. It feels forced and contrived and if the developers start feeling the need to add their opinions on social commentary or politics into the game then they will most certainly start seeing losses in revenue and that will unequivocally affect everyone.
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....
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Non-exclusion means inclusion, which means representation. Please don't play word games, that isn't going to work. LGBT population is small. It's very small. 3.5 to 4% is the highest and mostly seen only in western countries. When you consider world wide that number drops to 1-2%. Saying if you're not okay with it you can stop playing is the same argument as "it's my country and if you don't like it get out". Not going to win too many arguments with that one. There is absolutely no need to bring sexuality into a game that has nothing to do with the topic. If the developers want to to touch on social commentary or politics they should tread lightly. People will take your advice on their own accord, revenue in the game will drop and that will unequivocally affect everyone here. People are getting tired of this backdoor social justice non-sense. We don't need DBD turning into Last of Us part 2.
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Video games should stay away from sexuality and other things like that but unfortunately it's 21st century and there must be political corectness...
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MoP wasnt the first time the Pandarens existed.... js.
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It’s certainly higher than 3.5 percent though. That was this study for the USA and only reflects those that openly admit to being LGBT. But please show me the source of 1-2 percent worldwide (honestly interested because that sounds very incredible). BTW its higher in western countries because there are countries that literally kill people for being LGBT+. Or other punishments. And regardless of the number, saying a minority should not be represented in a Videogame just doesn’t make sense.
And I am not playing word games, I am just saying what the tweet was saying, they said they did unintentionally include hetero relations and will now not restrict themselves anymore from excluding LGBT+. They never said they do it just for representation. But it really doesn’t matter in the end. BHVR said they want to include/represent/not-exclude LGBT+. It’s not about bringing in sexuality, that is not new in DbD (Legion, Nurse, David, Ace).
and saying „don’t play if you don’t like it“ is totally valid. This is a free market and it’s about a video game. If you don’t like it, you really don’t have to play. Actually saying „we don’t want any LGBT+ chars in this game“ is way more comparable to „its my country if you don’t like it get out“.
you really don’t know how they will implement LGBT+ representation, you kind of assume just because they will include it they will manage it wrong. But for all we know, they will just mention some relationships or other lore bits in backstory and tome and thats it. You don’t have to let it affect you. There will not be enough people so full of hate that this will have an effect on revenue of the game.
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If bhvr ever adds something about a character being gay, I'd doubt it be anything more than a sentence or two, much like David's ex in his lore. Not in your face at all, and who cares if a small addition makes a small amount of people happy?
This shouldn't be something you stress over and gay representation shouldn't be politics.
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That's my point, it shouldn't be a big deal but they tweeted about it like they cured cancer.
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But they really did not do that. They made a small insignificant tweet stating they won’t exclude LGBT+ anymore despite their previous statement and gave their reasoning.
they did not say anything about it in their anniversary stream or Q&As, not in their other stream, all during pride month.
i can just imagine the meltdown of people „not against gays“ if they just added some tiny lore bit because BHVR stated they wouldn’t include any sexuality after all.
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Yeah that one screams „I am not homophobe as long as all and everything gay stays away from me“
no one forced him/her to like LGBT+. There is no harm in adding it to the lore. No one should feel attacked by the inclusion in a game.
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I'm gay and I agree that sexuality doesn't belong in a game about murdering people like this.
NONE of the original survivors has lore that talks about them being in a straight relationship, just like none have and lore about being in a gay one. The fact that a survivor will be released with lore saying "BY THE WAY THEY'RE GAY!!!" and most likely their entire back story will be 'supported gay rights,' 'bullied for being gay' and other gay stereotypes sucks.
The entire point of LGBT rights is to be treated as normal, and the fact that people demand characters' sexuality has to be dragged out front and center, and often made a characters' entire personality, is completely detrimental to that goal.
Even worse is we're probably going to get the same ludicrous stereotype of a femboy that most media portrays which does not represent many of us, and only further serves to alienate us from others.
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uhm. Nurse, David, Legion and also Ace kind of.
edit: you make heavy assumptions about how BHVR will include LGBT+. For all we know they will handle it just like they handled those mentioned hetero relationships/references.
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Yeah because a company that feels the need to announce that they are actively making characters LGBT for PR will definitely not be heavy handed with it.
Edit: Like have you read Zarina's lore? These aren't the masters of subtlety.
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They just made a small tweet, nothing extraordinary.
they had to revise their old statement, and they probably got many questions/feedback. It’s a good thing they gave an answer and they certainly did not exaggerate as many people do now.
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The problem I see is that many of you consider “shoving down your throat” a one line statement on someone’s romantic interest. If you really don’t care, you wouldn’t be complaining about it
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I feel like people often forget being heterosexual isn't a form of "sexuality" it's nature...being normal. Saying you're oppressed by viewing normal relationships between male and female just doesn't make sense.
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That is hopefully just a poor choice of words.
homo-/bisexuality is also naturally and normal.
and no one said they feel oppressed.
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It's a natural anomaly.
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Lol
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Nobody said they're oppressed, we're saying heterosexual relationships are shoved down everyone's throats all the time and nobody thinks that's "political" or "shouldn't be included". Y'know, the same arguments given about LGBT relationships.
PS: Being LGBT might not be the norm, but it's also nature.
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Like the Y chromosome once was, yes.
Post edited by Orion on1 -
If you feel like you're oppressed by strangers maybe you're playing victim so you feel justified in your beliefs?
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You just said normal, natural, relationships are forced down your throat. They're not. That's just nature being nature.
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wat
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