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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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Because there's arses on the survivor side too.
We recommend learning to use snug, he heavily punishes those types of survivors.
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yeah for sure I hate it too, I always make sure to call out my random teammates when they teabag in exit gates (unless I personally saw the killer do something super BM beforehand). it's almost always a survivor who did nothing all game, too, so it's really easy to call them out on it. hate survivors that do that. i personally only ever stay in gate when the killer's nearby if i think it'll give my teammates time to reset
i was just preemptively trying to head off the comparison between bleedout slugging and teabagging at an exit because although they're both BM and rude they're very different as far as core mechanics go
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So you're not actually 'waiting it out' at all.
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It would be awesome to have a doggo on my Hag but I don't think it's in the cards.
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Well I'm not looking for them, so in a way I am waiting it out. Waiting for them to come out of hiding while I patrol gens. At some point people will realise hiding doesn't accomplish anything. Doesn't get them the hatch, doesn't get them the escape.
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My response to this…vanished for some reason, but short version:
- Survivor BM contributes to killers having pressure to 4k.
- Some of this comes from the developers' attitude towards toxicity, with Mandy going on record in the past as saying that anything short of slurs is completely fine and another developer post I cannot locate talking about how (after an animation rework AFAIR) they wanted teabagging to remain as satisfying for survivors.
- BM slugging is more analogous to BM hiding. It's rare, there are outlier cases who do it all the time and it should probably be fixed, but that's a complicated proposition.
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Yet sometimes hiding does get us that door or hatch. So where's that leave us?
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An essential component in a vicious cycle.
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The same place that 3 Genning before the kick limit had us. Then the kick limit was introduced to prevent that scenario of boring the opponents into submission over a long period of time. This is why many people's answer to the hide and seek dilemma would be for crows to become present when survivors go a significant period of time without making any progress on gens.
If survivors end up escaping after a 30+ minute stalemate, its most likely because the killer would rather leave the match than wait out the server shutdown and instead just let them go. Excessive 3 genning and excessive hiding are two sides of the same coin, but one will seemingly never be addressed.
Edit: narrowing down specifically to the slug for 4k scenario, both sides would react to the scenario in more healthy ways if the hatch was earned, instead of RNG. You can blame sore winners as much as sore losers for that.
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It only does when the killer kills the 3rd. But if the 3rd is alive then hiding doesn't do anything. So when both hide it accomplishes nothing. I been playing it that way for about a week, want to know how many have escaped via hatch by hiding? 0. I have had many complaints about it but 🤷♂️ they are the ones hiding.
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Confirmation: You are talking about 2 survivors hiding forever or the slugging for the 4k? We may have accidently blended your conversation with someone else.
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We gonna hold off on this one cause we may have accidently responded under the wrong thing
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Specifically talking about hiding forever, like I said if 3rd is alive, hatch doesn't spawn. Make what you will of that lol
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Yeah, there's an auto filter that sometimes auto-removes posts. Not sure what the criteria is but there you have it
I think it's what's known as a positive-feedback loop. Killers sweat and BM, which leads to negative survivor attitudes, which leads to survivors sweating and BMing, which leads to negative killer attitudes, which leads to killers sweating and BM'ing, etc. Which side started it? Whose fault is it? It doesn't matter, because both sides are doing it now, and the best thing you can do is try to break the cycle (or just not play if it gets too much for you).
Definitely agree with you on the third point.
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Since that helps little: If 2 are alive and hiding forever then yes it wont help, if 2 are alive and 1 has been slugged then no hiding helps.
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Exactly, so answer is don't slug right?
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Anytime someone slugs for the 4k to try and maximize their results for whatever reason, it's an ego thing?
The more you know.
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But we're talking about rationales here on human behavior. You can wait the survivors out if you want, though if you're patrolling gens and they are just on the other side of the map they're probably also doing something else on their phone or alt tabbing while they wait.
If you're fine waiting the hour for the 4k sure, but at some point I'd think time investment would outweigh that.
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They have to do something to avoid crows, not much but if they tab out and don't move at all they will get crows. I could technically not move... I don't even need to patrol gens with tinkerer because when it gets to 70% I will know where they are. Just have it running in the background while I have some food or something while they are on the other side of the map avoiding crows.
I pose the same statement to you, if survivors are fine waiting out the hour for a hatch that may never appear then you would think at some point time investment would outweigh that, especially as they don't get the win at the end. Works both ways.
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I pose the same statement to you, if survivors are fine waiting out the hour for a hatch that may never appear then you would think at some point time investment would outweigh that, especially as they don't get the win at the end. Works both ways.That was my point about the chicken and egg scenario. You had said:
With this sort of attitude is there really any wonder why people slug and don't care if it's wasting survivors time?If killers slug because survivors are going to hide, then survivors hide because killers are going to slug. Both sides are sacrificing a lot of time for a minute improvement and/or to annoy the other side.
It happens on both sides. I don't understand why as I will either get on a gen as survivor or patrol the map as killer, but it happens for both.
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Killers don't slug because survivors hide. They slug because they know the hatch will spawn the moment 3rd survivor dies regardless if survivors hide or not. So to maximise chance of finding hatch before survivor does, the killer will slug to slow them down. Survivors hide because they know they can't do the gens with only 2 people left (suicide to try). So they hide and hope the other survivor dies first so the remaining survivor has a chance to get the hatch. So we know which came first, the hatch. That's the reason for both sides doing what they do. Why do survivors remain hidden when they know the killer won't look for them after about 15min? That's the issue, that's the time wasting without reason.
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comparing slugging for 4k and tbagging at the gate is comparing apples to oranges. One is literally securing 100% of your objective, other is just plain attempt of "dominance asserting" by wanting your opponent to come and look at their defeat. Slugging for 4k is only lowkey comparable to saving a survivor in endgame for 4-men escape
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The rhetoric of ‘I need to slug because survivors hide and waste my time’ has always annoyed me as it’s a clear case of cause and correlation. Survivors hide because they know the killer is going to slug for the 4K. The proof of this is that in matches where killers don’t do this most survivors continue to play normally.
If the killer hooks the third survivor 90% of the time the last survivor will try and unhook in matches I play. Less often, but still very often, people will still try and pick you up even though it’s clear the killer is proxy camping and trying for the 4K. Survivors want to engage in normal gameplay. If you’re seeing survivors hiding in the majority of your matches as a killer then you’re likely slugging for the 4K a lot. It annoys me survivors are blamed on this scenario when killers are causing their own issues, most of the time.
The hatch has always been in the game and slugging for the 4k wasn’t a problem until the last couple of years. If the hatch was removed then the doors would be powered and survivors could still try to escape that way. So killers would still slug… and likely also expect wake up and sole survivor to be nerfed .
The game has been going on for so long now that it’s going to need to change and evolve - just as it did for killers when they added blood lust etc. it’s just how it goes. If killers don’t want slugging for the 4K to cause a change in the game, as I believe it will shortly, then they need to stop doing it so consistently and just re-engage in normal gameplay.
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Not every time. If they know where the last survivor is and the killer is going for adept or some tome challenge that requires a 4k, it can be more time efficient to slug for the 30 seconds to get the additional down, instead of risking having to play the extra game. I don't personally do that but that specific scenario is one I can justify as not being about ego
However, caring enough about the differences between a 3k and a 4k when a challenge is not involved is indeed an ego thing.
I invoked the comparison because they're both decisions that are made from a desire to flaunt one's own ego ("I'm so good that only a 4k will do and these peon survivors will have to waste their own time for my sake or hand it to me on a silver platter" in the former, "This loser baby killer didn't stand a chance against my greatness" in the latter)
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People really need to check their own sense of entitlement.
Personally, I realize that the killer may try to 4K/wholly complete their objective using anything the game allows them to do. Even if they slug for the 4k, they are still just playing the game within the defined ruleset and mechanics.
I also realize that the last survivor(s) may try to get hatch by any means necessary as it may be their only viable option to escape. If they hide during a slug or do a 'drive by' on another remaining survivor, they are also just playing the game within the defined ruleset and mechanics.
I know that these actions can occur any time I queue up and don't expect otherwise.
I certainly understand that actions like these may not be fun for the people on the receiving end, but trying to maximize your own results does not equate to ego issues.
I didn't get a psychology degree from DBD University, though, so my expectations that people try to kill/survive to the best of their own abilities within the game's rulesets may be out of touch.
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I think many people misunderstood the original comment. It was about a situation when tehre are more than 1 person slugged and 1 person healthy/injured. You hook one of them and then the other one is picked up and both hide leaving the third one to die. The question is, why in this situation not slug? It wastes less time for everyone and killer is pretty much doing a favour here.
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teabagging is just toxic behavior… don't compare this to getting 4k XDDDDDD. that's ignorance.
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You mean like some of the nonsense you've spouted?
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Toxic behaviour is behaviour that is skewed towards accommodating one individual's needs and demands.
By slugging for the 4K you are circumventing intended game mechanics (where the Hatch spawns and the last survivor and Killer look for the Hatch), you are wasting two people's time and changing intended game mechanics to skew towards you, and if you're doing it regularly you're doing it mainly for the ego satisfaction of a 4K (as on a BP basis and time spent getting into a new match you are better off hooking the 3rd person with the only exceptions being achievements and tome challenges).
Congratulations, you just hit every metric on slugging for the 4K being toxic. If you do this you are just as toxic as the teabaggers at the exit gate. The only ignorance here is attempting to claim that slugging for the 4K isn't as toxic as teabagging at the exit gate and all the gaslighting in the thread attempting to put the blame on Survivor players for negative Killer behaviours that the Killers choose to initiate.
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Small reminder that pulling a DC to give the hatch to your teammate was a thing at a certain point, such a pyrrhic victory was tryharded like that. Every killer is in their right to fight for the 4K, because they have earned it, this one is not a consolation prize. It is funny that those who have lost and are aware of it are in the demanding side.
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I always take a moment to understand the game state if there are only two survivors and more than one generator left, then get on a gen (or maybe hunt down a Devour Hope totem). A lot of my solo queue teammates also get on gens if they know the killer is somewhere else (e.g. chasing me).
As killer, I also essentially never see both survivors hide for a long time, even if multiple gens are left with just two survivors. I will admit though, that I've spectated some people who hid while they tried to wait out their teammates. I tend to root for the killer to get the hiders when they're leaving their active teammate to take all the risks :/
In any case, I don't doubt that you get this happening a lot, but it always surprises me because of my own experience. I do kind of wonder if it's because of playstyle differences. I mean, shouldn't killer instinct make it possible for you to get one of them at some point?
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Is this meant to be a response to me?
Yes, trying to always go for a 4k when a 3k is clearly a win, is self-evidently ego driven. There's nothing wrong with having an ego per se, but I've watched Skermz, Alby, Zubat, Otz, Hens, Nightlight, Zaka, Xeno, Swarm and Tofu all choose to not slug for the 4k in killer games I've seen of theirs recently, and I never slug for the 4k except if I catch the last 2 survivors in the same position and I'm able to get both knockdowns within 10 seconds of each other or so.
It's clearly wrong to say that "hatch causes killers to slug for the 4k and that's that" because all those players demonstrate the ability to not slug - clearly hatch isn't the deciding factor in whether someone slugs because those players aren't playing some version of the game where there's no hatch. There's clearly some other factor at play, and you may choose to call that "wholly complet[ing] their objective" but when, as I said, a 3k is already clearly a win, it's hard to see wasting several other peoples' time to go from "win" to "win" as anything other than a self-serving ego play.
It's like how it's considered rude to try super hard in baseball when you're up by a lot of runs in late innings and the other team calls a position player to the mound.
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I am interested in who the professors are at DBD U. Probably Claudette on Botany, Adam for literature. Vittorio could teach history I guess, and Jonah for math. Mikaela could teach witchcraft and Blight and Rebecca could probably teach chemistry and alchemy.
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It is a tough University to get into.
You have to sacrifice your own goals, accept the win conditions of others, and expect to engage in circular conversations that do not represent the reality of the game.
Oh, and if you were planning on attending the chemistry classes, Blight got fired for substance abuse.
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There is nothing wrong with people trying to 4K every game.
Some people also consider a 4K/Merciless as their only win condition - there is also nothing wrong with this.
Mentioning streamers and/or providing anecdotal evidence doesn't change this.
People are free to pursue their goals in the game however they want to within the established ruleset.
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If you want to reread my post, you'll notice that I also said there's nothing wrong with having an ego and playing for a 4k every game. I was saying that it's inaccurate to say that hatch causes slugging for a 4k when plenty of people are able to not slug for a 4k despite the hatch, and that "having an ego" seems to fit as a better explanation because that particular barometer seems to divide the camps of "slugs for a 4k consistently" and "doesn't" better than the barometer of "hatch exists"
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Indeed.
There is nothing wrong with trying to 4k every game, slug or not.
Regarding streamers, it is beneficial for them to move from one match to the next as quickly as possible to keep their audiences engaged/provide dynamic content.
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I literally had a match a couple hours ago, at the end it was 2 survivors left, 1 gen left on haddonfield (all 3 gens were next to eachother) 1 survivor was attempting the gens but would back away when I got close. The other survivor was hiding the opposite side of the map and would not help the other survivor to do gens. As a result I patrol the 3 gens pushing back the one trying. In that situation I don't think the hiding survivor deserves the hatch. If both tried they both might die but they might get the gen done. Turned out game went to server end and both died.
Post game chat they said "had fun doing nothing for an hour lol" they don't care how long they wait they just hide out of spite, knowing they won't win prolonging the match. My view is simply if people play it that way I will play it the same way. I could have slugged the 3rd and went after the 4th but people don't like slugging for the 4k either. And they might have got the hatch for admittingly "doing nothing". This isn't slugging for 4k for ego reasons or entitlement it's denying people like that the hatch. I honestly think slugging for the 4k is a minimal issue compared to hiding for the hatch...4min v 1 hour that's all I'm saying.
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So weird about that scenario though. If I were one of those survivors, I'd do what the survivor on gens did, but expect to get chased at some point. Then if you wouldn't chase, I'd be trying to get you to run out your gen kicks and finish the gen.
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I've never been in a game that has went to server close before....
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Thats what the 1 survivor was doing, they would hop on a gen then back off. Throughout the hour they almost got the gen done. If the other survivor helped they could have done it. At least got my attention to chase them so the other could do gens. But I knew he was hiding across the map so I didn't bother chasing, just guard the gens.
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Disagree. Going for a 4k by slugging every match is bad for the same reason streamers don't do it, it leads to unengaging gameplay and wastes a bunch of people's time for no real practical change in result.
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I think that's because killers slug the 3rd then look for 4th. Gives them 4min to find them so server wouldn't end. But if the killer doesn't slug the 3rd and both survivors are hiding then it can and does go to server end time (frequently with me because recently I have refused to slug the 3rd and simply wait it out to prove a point)
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Honestly what I am seeing and getting most is the last person is slugged just to get the mori… prolonging the game. They will camp that last slugged survivor until the other survivors die on hook. Then will mori the last survivor no matter if the they were right in front of a hook or not.
A bleed out button is definitely needed so survivors can bleed out faster so they may move on to the next game, or base kit unbreakable or both.
The insta mori idea is bad because that negates any soul guard or unbreakable chances. Killers really have no excuse to slug extensively or excessively any longer because of the hook respawn, and being that the only way to wiggle out is if you have teammates block or sabo multiple hooks, or the killer is just "lost"; definitely no excuse for waiting to hook. 99% of the time it is just to get the mori.
As far as the last survivor hiding… they are doing what they are supposed to be doing… surviving. That is on us as killers to hunt them down and kill them. They are waiting for hatch. Even match of 1v1 both going for hatch. RNG works pretty well IMO. Always seems to be luck of the draw unless an offering is placed. Hook the 3rd survivor and hunt the last and close the hatch to start endgame.
The problem is now that the game has been saturated with so much aura reading abilities that its become a crutch and heavily relied upon and most killers now lack the skill of hunting without the aura reading handicap on top of becoming lazy and complacent. Then have the nerve to say "EZ" in post chat when all they have are wall hack perks… get the 4k without any perks, tunneling, and camping… that would be impressive to me as a survivor.
Yeah I know… unpopular opinions… have fun- smh lol
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If bleedout became an option I guarantee more killers would do what I do and not slug the 3rd... They would keep them alive as long as possible while protecting gens and looking for the 4th. There is a reason killers don't hook the 3rd...if bleed out was an option it would be no different to hooking with the suicides.
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Me too.
As killer, I hunt down the last survivor(s), but have never had two hide well enough to stay fully hidden for more than a few minutes. Sometimes as a stealth killer in hopeless 2v1 situations (e.g. 3 gens or more left), I'll see one doing a gen, chase them off, then go stealthily look on the other gens for their teammate for a few minutes. And if they're not doing any gens after a few minutes, and the one teammate keeps trying, I do some hide-and-seek for the one not contributing...
As survivor, if the situation looks hopeless, I'll sometimes try to open chests for a medkit if I'm injured. If I can't get some kind of heal, I'll go on gens. And if I do get a heal, I'll also go on gens. If a slug for 4k happens, I'll slowly try to go for the save, careful to avoid the killer who's likely camping the slug.
None of those ever came close to an hour :/
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Original final mori system should have gone live.
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I've had a few. One against a full hider squad that had stealth perks, on Mother's Dwelling I think.
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I've wondered how awful it would be if a bully squad didn't do their normal routine, but instead just picked perks that helped them hide from the killer from the start of the match without doing gens.
It's possible to not get crows while doing that, and I feel like it would be the most obnoxious game of locker search ever. Killer instinct should still make it not totally awful, but I've wondered about that exact scenario.
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I invoked the comparison because they're both decisions that are made from a desire to flaunt one's own ego ("I'm so good that only a 4k will do and these peon survivors will have to waste their own time for my sake or hand it to me on a silver platter" in the former, "This loser baby killer didn't stand a chance against my greatness" in the latter)
alright, let's compare technical aspects of getting a 4k that have no connection with ego flaunting to exit gate tbagging ones.
Slugging for 4k
- securing a double pip;
- securing an adept;
- higher MMR gain.
Staying/tbagging at the gate:
- resetting teammates for a potentional endgame save (which is the worst decision for an endgame save since killer could just force you out at the gate and completely secure that kill)
Btw, you will notice quite often that survivors who are slugged for 4k willi intentionally try to deny you 4k by hook and force their own bleedout. No, they won't try crawling to the nearest possible hatch spawnpoint, they will crawl to the random spot so that they can be sure killer will waste time trying to find them before them bleeding out. So, why does a survivor slugged for 4k that wants to avoid their time being wasted decide to further waste time by doing this? Ego is the nasty thing.
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