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The Representation Tweet
Comments
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The Nurse has a husband. Crickets. Julie, David, Dwight, all have lore featuring heterosexuality. Tumbleweed. Every character's appearance and outfits align flawlessly with cis norms? Not a peep. As soon as the possibility of queer lore is announced, hullabaloo! It's pandering, the game shouldn't be political, every character should be ambiguous, etcetera, etcetera!
Representation is nothing to me. I have never been represented in any piece of media; perhaps I am a strange person. This is likely just gonna be some white dude having a masc4masc kiss with another one, too, so it's not that I care, but the outcry about this has a very clear motivation.
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So you're saying any company that comes out in support of LGBTQ is using them as a marketing concept. So no company should do anything to support the LGBTQ community through actual representation and inclusivity within their brand, because they stand to benefit from it and thus it is using their sexuality as a marketing ploy vs. helping support their cause? I don't agree with that. The idea that support cannot be mutually beneficial, and in it being that way, then becomes insincere is ridiculous. Just because they didn't go about it in the way YOU wanted doesn't make their support disingenuous. And they don't have a new, unlicensed character coming out. Maybe they will build that into new character stories, but that doesn't help them effect a change NOW. How is a character's story being changed to reflect their new found sexuality any different from the RL experience of someone discovering or coming out with their own sexuality?
Your argument seems to be against the fact that BHVR is a company that makes money off their game, so adding in changes to existing characters during a period of time set aside for mass recognition of the LGBTQ community means they're doing so to profiteer off the community itself. Why couldn't this also be seen as displaying their support openly to the existing tens of thousands of people who play this game every day? And anyone looking to buy this game in the future? Openly backing a specific group can also be a detriment to a company's bottom line. It can cause people who oppose their view not to consume their product. It enters them into a controversial conversation they never HAD to have but CHOSE to have to show their support behind the causes and movements that matter to them and their culture as an organization.
You can say that you personally don't want or appreciate their support, or that you don't like the way they've gone about showing the support, but I just don't agree with you that the answer would have been to do nothing until a new unlicensed character was released. The world is in need of more shows of support right now than less. No one is making anyone buy this game. If people see relatable characters in this game and thus choose to buy it...how has any harm been done?
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I see you don't want any characters to be retconed but would any characters' lore be retconed if they were made gay?
For example before the Archives I could say that Dwight is gay and it wouldn't contradict any of his lore. I could also say that Dwight drugged his boss and that wouldn't have been against his old lore. Now with the Archives we know that Dwight drugged his boss, even though his original lore didn't mention this.
With most of these characters we don't know much about them so we can't say that asking them gay would retcon their backstory. Of course there are some exceptions like the Nurse but the majority of characters are possibilities at this point.
Of course if they want to make a new LGBT character I would like that as well.
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The reason I state the genre is because the genre set the whole universe up....if you look at Halloween/Friday the 13th/A nightmare on Elmstreet there is no "I identify with this victim" because they are there to either die or to survive.
but if we look at games like Skyrim,Sims, and Fable which gives us players the free reign to marry or have sex with anyone then why not? it's developing your character/characters/world than just "Hey our game now has [Insert] community"
this is what happened with "Overwatch" the adding of more background was obvious Tracer being a Lesbian was implied/Hinted thats fine because it adds more because it showed her Girlfriend but when making Soldier 76 a gay man out of nowhere upset the community because it was basically forced and even my gay friend felt it was "forced" and that there was nothing hinting/implying soldier was gay.
I would rather prefer the "Make them how you see" vs "Canon lore"
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Because it didn't need to be publicly mentioned as if it wasn't a pandering agenda?....I made that clear already.
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I prefer new characters being and let me quote "Being properly represented" rather than retconning established lore.
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Ace is a womanizer, Sally had a husband, Frank and Julie are in a relationship, David had an ex-girlfriend, etc, etc. Orion, this is not a hill I recommend you die on.
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But is it pandering....the definition of Pander is " to provide gratification for others' desires." in current social definitions the company wants to profit from a community...and I like when a character is ambiguous because it opens the doors for us fans to make our own "Lore" for them.
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Like I said, it most likely is a PR stunt but it doesn't take away the fact it could help the movement around the cause. It also could be that they actually support minorities, even if it took them 3 years. Opinions can and do change over time.
Heterosexuality has been forced on people for a long time and it still is an ongoing problem. That is the reason why saying "don't shove it down our throats" hurts people who doesn't fit the straight norm. Especially them who found out their "odd" orientation at young age.
Lore is lore. It can be rewritten, you can always add more to it, take away from it, whatever the writers feel like. Not accepting diversity just because lore hasn't been detailed doesn't really sound a strong argument.
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Then tell me, where was this disagreement when unambigous heterosexuality was included in the game?
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Never said I am "not" accepting "Diversity" I said the opposite btw.
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There are gay characters in horror films, too.
And this is the same kind of strange argument that people made about Overwatch, too. I don't even know what it means when people say that a character being gay feels "forced." It is a fictional character, it's whatever the creator wants it to be. If anything, Soldier 76 played against type, and it was a good way to say "hey, orientations are of all shapes and sizes" within the confines of that fictional universe. Like Overwatch, Dead by Daylight does not feature blank slate characters who are devoid of characterization. They both came out of the gate with characters who had backstories and personalities (more implied than shown in DBD, but you get the picture). There has never not been a "canon lore," as you call it.
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but these kinds of arguments always come across as "Can we just not have gay stuff in here?" when they boil down to the kinds of points that you have been making.
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Thats what you had to ask the devs 3 years old with/for
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They also announced they were adding a Silent Hill chapter, crossplay, EGC, and more. Have you considered that they just announce things before they do them? Why is this any different?
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What is bisexuality?
No hill, just pointing out that sexuality isn't just heterosexuality/homosexuality.
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Not every character is bisexual and that's A-OK.
-A bi dude
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OK? That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying that having an opposite-sex partner doesn't mean you're heterosexual.
-Also a bi dude
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- Yes but there was no specific focus, people didn't watch horror films for race/sexuality but for the monsters/slashers.
- And people felt it was forced because as I said there was no definition for Soldier ever being Gay/Straight/Bi but when he was just written that way because of a "Picture" it was just not necessary but there is canon lore to these character.
- It's not about "no gay stuff in here" it's about how its done, I felt new character's should be
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Because that has to do with the actual game?....and it's different because why donate to LGBT now in this month and not every month? why market/indicate so much that you are so "LGBT" now and make this a thing?....as said by someone else it's a "PR Stunt" for marketing which doesn't sit right with me and others.
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Lore also has to do with the game, which this is.
Why not donate to LGBT this month and then donate to other things in other months? Is there something wrong about this month? Is the weather not right?
And today I learned that one tweet is "marketing/indicating so much".
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Disney star wars, rewrites it's lore all the time. Leading to endless inconsistencies, retcons and general story issues. There is no reason to be invested in it or give a care, for not only have they given the middle finger to old legacy characters like Luke, Han and others more times than one can count. They even try to rewrite the original movies with their animated shorts. Making Luke look like a fool and moron. Making Han look worst than he was in the movies. Making Leia look like a crazy blood thirsty insane person. When they were trying to get people hype for episode 9 and the Emperor returning. They release a comic, that brought in a new character that simply bash and insulted the Emperor and made the Emperor look like a idiot. Making a fair few people question why the heck did they do this, when they are trying to get people hype for the Emperor return but than release this comic, which make it seem like the Emperor is no big deal and is nothing more than a moron. Which goes against episode one to three, where he is a master mind that plots the downfall of the jedi and taking control of the galaxy for himself.
So while you can rewrite stuff or retcon stuff. It should be used in a very sparingly way or you end up with the mess that is disney star wars. Since if you retcon stuff all the time or the rules of a magic system can change on the drop of a dime. Well you give people no reason to care, for there is nothing to sink their teeth into. They can't get invested in the fights, for they lack any understanding as to how the magic system works, the powers and abilities both characters have or why they are fighting in the first place. For consistency is normally king when it comes to writing, since it allows one to get more invested in the conflict of the story and the characters. For a character that acts in a consistence way, can make them feel more like a real person. Since you get to know what they like, dislike, why they act a certain way and ect.
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Lore is just text.....it has nothing to do with the gameplay.
the concept of what I said didn't truly set in....they are doing it now all within this span for Marketing to the LGBT community and you just learned about this one tweet? thats alright but from what people are telling me it's just PR/Pandering.
this is all I got to say to you Orion, I hope you have a nice day.
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And I'm saying that having an opposite-sex partner is not indicative of being anything other heterosexual.
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It's like making Freddy Krueger into a good guy when retconning/making new stuff.
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What he seems to be saying is that it is foolish to pander and retcon existing characters. Just make new one's X sexuality, that way it fits into their backstory better.
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Correct
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Different people take different things away from media, so you should not presume to speak for everyone. A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 2 -- the first sequel to one of the most iconic and influential slasher films ever made, and an indelible inspiration for Dead by Daylight -- is one of the most celebrated gay horror films of all time, to the extent that a feature-length documentary exists on this one subject.
Defining characters for which "there was no definition" is the opposite of being "forced." Like, you are literally making an example of a character who was a clean slate, who the creators made a creative decision for -- perhaps inspired by a piece of background material as you point out. This is how creative development works. How else do you expect it to work?
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Lore has to do with the game, though. They made an announcement for the Rift and often speak of lore. Why aren't you complaining about those announcements? How about the announcements of the prizes they've received? Prizes don't have anything to do with gameplay.
Trust me, I know very well what you're saying and trying to do.
"Indicative of" is not the same as "Confirmed as", which is what I was saying. I'm glad you agree.
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What character has been confirmed as heterosexual? Not hinted at or implied, but blatantly confirmed.
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I personally think they should've just kept leaving it up to the players imagination, obviously with the exception of licensed characters, defining an original characters sexuality heavily complicates the whole finding someone you relate to thing and decreases your options if your gay and or straight, this then brings up the problem of balancing the number of gay and straight characters in the game and just overall screws everyone over. I would like the inclusion of more flamboyant characters and personalities, but they shouldn't outright confirm a characters sexuality in order to keep the peace in the community.
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You can't retcon something that wasn't established in the first place, though.
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How does knowing more about a character make it more difficult to relate to them? Also, why do you want gay stereotypes, but no actual gay people?
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Agreed here.
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I personally don't care about characters or people's sexual orientation
But if it makes people able to connect with a character better and able to enjoy the game better i don't see a problem with it
All the more power too them
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Finally, someone who says they don't care and actually means it.
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I can only speak for myself. As a gay male, of course I think this is great that they want more representation in their game. I don't see it as a big deal, because for me BHVR has always seemed like a company that embraces other cultures/groups, considering how many real life 'cultural events' they cater to... (Chinese New Year, Day of the Dead, Christmas).
Representation is important and I personally think it's a cool thing they are doing this. This is one of the few games where you can have a selection of different backgrounds and ethnicities, and there is something to be said about that.
You can view it as a marketing stunt/tool but the fact is there are many LGBTQI community members who already play this game, so to me, they aren't trying to market anything, not when some of us have already invested into the game. If they wanted to do it as a "PR" stunt they would have done it a long time ago.
Just my 2 cents.
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Marvel comics turned Iceman gay. A character who has a history of being straight, dating countless women and being in relationships with one. Than suddenly out of the blue, marvel turns him gay for reasons. Which throws past history of the character into the trash. Which even ignoring that. The character could still possibly be good with this change but nope. They turn him into the worst gay stereotype you can think of. Making him come off more like a pure jerk who only cares about himself. The new current iceman has gotten upset at a love interest, for not wanting to put being in danger all the time, due to super villains. Something that sounds very reasonable but no, the current iceman doesn't understand that and comes off like a jerk. Has created ice status of himself, just to waste his parents time by making him think he is just waiting outside the fast food place they were visiting and before that, yell at them for trying to help out someone else while in public. Has destroy the property of others for no other reason, than just to be a jerk. That and Ice-man endlessly reminds you he is gay. Which would be akin to a character saying i'm straight over and over again. That or badly used flash backs that remind you three times in a row of information you already knew, like what the naruto anime does, leading it being annoying, due to just being told the same thing in a short period of time and treating you like a moron who can't remember anything if not told to you over and over again. Yes yes i understand they are x sexually. Lets get on with the story already. So in the case of marvel Iceman. Not only did they change the character's sexually for no real reason. They also turn a character that would care for the ones who loved, into a self center jerk, who only really cares about himself. That and endless issues with simple bad writing. Could they have made this change work and have it possibly made logic sense? Yes that is possibly but with the way they did it. It come off as force, lazy and poorly written. Along with giving the middle finger to people who have been following this character and his adventures for years, possibly generations now by throwing out past cannon and history for no real reason. While in return all one is given, is poor writing and poorly written stories. With the whole thing coming off as force, since they so rapidly changed a character for seeming no logical reason.
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I'll believe that they support minorities when I see an Indigenous Person as a Survivor in their game. IPs are notoriously discriminated against in Canada and since BHVR is based in Canada, that would show more support for diversity than supporting lgbtq+ during pride month.
For reference on the topic, particularly the Indigenous Rights section:
All in my opinion of course.
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If you don't care why do you make a wholeass post about it. Just move on. It's not even gonna be "shoved down your throat" it will only be mentioned in the lore lmao
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Thank you to all that are contributing to this discussion civilly and keeping it respectful to everyone! <3
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I have not followed X-Men for a very very long time, so I cannot speak to this, other than to acknowledge that I have heard, in passing, that this happened at some point. There are, certainly as with anything, unwieldy ways to handle the subject matter.
Behaviour's current stance and implied direction is not one of them.
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Yeah behaviour i think will handle it better, due to being able to learn from others that did it poorly or these who did it correctly. Since well to bring up manga. They have a whole genre of boy's love and girl's love. Lots of quality stories that handle it rather well from japan. Which in both of these cases, use new original characters to tell a story and thanks to quality story telling it works. For they handle them like everyone else. Write a character who happens to be x and bang. It works. For the character is just treated like a character.
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I think BHVR will handle it better simply because they employ LGBT people. If you want a woman to be written correctly, you hire a woman. If you want an L/G/B/T character to be written correctly, you hire an L/G/B/T person.
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Spider-man aka Peter Parker the one from the classic comics, is a character that people from countless different races can relate to, men and women alike. Why do so many care for Peter Parker? Why do so many like this character and can relate to them? Simple. Due to going through struggles and challenges that are very relatable. Like being poor and down on your luck. Peter has had money issues countless times. Having to balance his personal life and his life as a super hero [or to put it another way, think of it as trying to balance your work life and personal life]. Dealing with lost of friends and family. Peter goes through struggles that are very common and relatable to many people, no matter who or what they are. Which allows people from all different backgrounds and walks of life to relate to him, due to his struggles being very common and relatable to many people. People don't relate to Peter, due to him being male, due to him being white or straight. No it's due to what he has gone through as a character, who he is as a person that people relate to. Which is why Peter is such a relatable character to many different folks. He is not some hollow empty shell, people can only relate to due to looking the same or wish fulfillment. Which is why i think, the best way to get people to rally behind a character or relate to them, is to well treat them like any other character and employ some good writing.
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You make a good point. Thanks for including reference. I don't know how things are in Canada. I just tried to say we can't know for sure if it is for PR or if BHVR took a step towards supporting minorities. It is much more likely to be for PR but I hope it isnt.
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Call me crazy, but given the history of indigenous people after settlers met them, putting them in a situation where they're doomed to be brutally killed forever might not exactly be the best way to include indigenous people.
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I think at the absolute minimum they should offer the community an opportunity to weigh in on the topic. Conduct a poll. Which 3 characters do you think should be LGBT? Which 3 characters do think should not be LGBT? Whichever the top 3 that players don't want being LGBT are not given an LGBT identity then the top 3 picks for an LGBT identity are given such. Something like that. At least give the players an opportunity to be a part of the decision. That isn't too much to ask for.
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I was thinking about that as well when I wrote the post, but then the same consideration should apply to the other survivors who are currently in the game and the races they represent. Especially Claudette and Adam and the history of brutality against their representative people. Not to mention their intention to include a survivor with an lgbtq+ facet to their backstory. Would this same consideration be applied to the character as well? To be doomed to be brutally killed forever?
If this was a reason not to include indigenous people, then perhaps survivors themselves shouldn't have races or orientations at all.
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True, I wasn't defending, merely clarifying
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I just hope they make actual characters and not just blank husks of a character who's entire story is "I'm gay". Stuff like that should be an ASPECT of a character, not the central point. Alot of companies slip on this in going in with the goal of "ok, we're gonna make a gay character" and then fail at making any kind of interesting character because they stopped at the gay part.
If you want a good example of how to do it well...
Robin was an excellent character with many likable aspects. Her scenes with Steve was AMAZING and she became a beloved character, all before breaking the news to Steve, who was starting to develop feelings, that she was gay. THIS is how you develop a gay character. Many companies are either trying to FORCE it, or retro-act it by making past characters gay even though it was never so much as HINTED at previously (I'm lookin at YOU J.K.Rowlings).
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